To T or Not to T--What Would You Have Done?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Sounds like your partner is full of himself and takes 9am freshman games way too seriously.

I won't even begin to apply this to a 7pm varsity contest because this would NEVER happen in that situation. I hate to use the word "never", but let's be realistic. This would never happen. That's why this coach and his players are involved in a 9am Saturday game.

I do not know if this is fair. The problem is that there are different cultures in our large area about what is expected. On one hand some want everything handled a certain way and go to another place and they are apathetic about other things. His partner is probably trying to figure out his way as well and wanted to do what was expected. Not all officials have the experience as some of us to not make a big deal out of these things. A lot of officials working Freshman ball are trying to find their way and is the lowest level of high school that anyone can work. And the coaches do not help as they take their games as kind of a big deal and not put it in perspective as some should. One of the reasons many veterans stop working Freshman ball is the headaches that come with working it and things like this add to those pains.

Peace

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know if this is fair. The problem is that there are different cultures in our large area about what is expected. On one hand some want everything handled a certain way and go to another place and they are apathetic about other things. His partner is probably trying to figure out his way as well and wanted to do what was expected. Not all officials have the experience as some of us to not make a big deal out of these things. A lot of officials working Freshman ball are trying to find their way and is the lowest level of high school that anyone can work. And the coaches do not help as they take their games as kind of a big deal and not put it in perspective as some should. One of the reasons many veterans stop working Freshman ball is the headaches that come with working it and things like this add to those pains.

Peace

Very good point!!

[Old Man Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know if this is fair. The problem is that there are different cultures in our large area about what is expected. On one hand some want everything handled a certain way and go to another place and they are apathetic about other things. His partner is probably trying to figure out his way as well and wanted to do what was expected. Not all officials have the experience as some of us to not make a big deal out of these things. A lot of officials working Freshman ball are trying to find their way and is the lowest level of high school that anyone can work. And the coaches do not help as they take their games as kind of a big deal and not put it in perspective as some should. One of the reasons many veterans stop working Freshman ball is the headaches that come with working it and things like this add to those pains.

Peace

Our association had common approach to the "book" for sub varsity games.....NO Ts for the book not complete at the 10 minute mark. Heck I can't tell you how many times working sub-varsity games that due to weather or traffic that the visitors rolled off the bus and we tossed the ball up with just a few minutes of warm ups. In fact, most times when we had to start with limited warm-ups I told both coaches that there would be no technical fouls regarding the book tonight.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bas2456

You guys are way too concerned about what time the game is and on what day.

Apply the situation to a 7 pm varsity start with no game before it.


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It's not the time, really. It's the Varsity vs Freshman thing. Unless you work in a strange area, surely you have a completely different atmosphere (and level of organization) for varsity than you do for freshman games.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bas2456

As stated above, my partner was looking for any excuse to not assess a technical foul. He got what he was looking for, and we moved on.

Let's say, though, that the conditions are "right" to assess the technical. The visitors coach knows the rule and wants the tech enforced.

You could...enforce the technical, knowing that the coach wanting the tech is correct by rule. Or, you could tell him, no coach, it's a freshman game on a Saturday morning, we're not going to enforce the rule.

Where I work, we're told to enforce the uniform rules at every level. Don't know why we would ignore this rule just because it's a freshman game.

Coach, we've been told not to enforce pre-game book technicals in non-varsity contests.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Coach, we've been told not to enforce pre-game book technicals in non-varsity contests.

This is an area where local practices really need to prevail. You don't want to be the only one calling this T at the 9 minute mark, and you don't want to be the only one ignoring it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old Man Ref

Our association had common approach to the "book" for sub varsity games.....NO Ts for the book not complete at the 10 minute mark. Heck I can't tell you how many times working sub-varsity games that due to weather or traffic that the visitors rolled off the bus and we tossed the ball up with just a few minutes of warm ups. In fact, most times when we had to start with limited warm-ups I told both coaches that there would be no technical fouls regarding the book tonight.

I never would consider a T in a varsity game (or any game especially) because the team bus was late. Nothing starts anyway until the team is on site. So not sure how that plays a role. The game time is when the administration says they are ready. And if a team is late due to weather, we do not start the time based on the game. Heck if that is the case, we might not even warm up 10 minutes if that is OK with both coaches or there is some other issue that needs to speed up the process. A book situation would not even be apart of the situation.

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Freshman games in my area usually start at 4:30pm and we're happy to just have the teams there to start the game on time. We don't really enforce the 10 minute rule for sub-varsity games as there is too much outside of the team's control. I'd ask your assigner whether or not they wanted the 10 minute rule strictly enforced for sub-varsity games before I'd start issuing technical fouls for that.

[Old Man Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never would consider a T in a varsity game (or any game especially) because the team bus was late. Nothing starts anyway until the team is on site. So not sure how that plays a role. The game time is when the administration says they are ready. And if a team is late due to weather, we do not start the time based on the game. Heck if that is the case, we might not even warm up 10 minutes if that is OK with both coaches or there is some other issue that needs to speed up the process. A book situation would not even be apart of the situation.

Peace

Not sure where you worked but there were many games I did that the visiting team traveled an hour or more to get to the game. The ADs were clear on one issue, the varsity games were to start on-time whether that was 7 or 7:30
so that the visitors could get home at a reasonable hour.

In several of these more rural districts, the same crew worked the jv and varsity games. The bus would pull in for a 5:30 JV game at 5:30. Sometimes in these cases, the referee would be ready to toss the ball for the JV game but the book was still being completed. Therefore, no Ts on the sub-varsity book

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old Man Ref

Not sure where you worked but there were many games I did that the visiting team traveled an hour or more to get to the game. The ADs were clear on one issue, the varsity games were to start on-time whether that was 7 or 7:30
so that the visitors could get home at a reasonable hour.

I work in the general area of the OPer and I probably work for the person that this game took place. We live in the Chicago land area, which involves the suburbs and even some outside areas. You can be 10 miles away and if you have to take the right road it could take you 45 minutes. So it is not uncommon to have a team late. And ADs here can say all they want about starting on time, but if the team bus breakdowns (happen this football season) we are not starting just because the time says 7:30. And it is also a liability issue if you do not allow the proper warm-up time before a game regardless of game time.

Originally Posted by Old Man Ref

In several of these more rural districts, the same crew worked the jv and varsity games. The bus would pull in for a 5:30 JV game at 5:30. Sometimes in these cases, the referee would be ready to toss the ball for the JV game but the book was still being completed. Therefore, no Ts on the sub-varsity book

Again, we do not live in the rural area. And the T and even the clock starting before game is not based on only the game time. That might work if everyone is there on time and we have plenty of time before the game. But it is not a hard fast rule or even required the clock match the game. Heck we have games before other games before many of our varsity games. The varsity game often starts not at game time as the prelim game either did not start on time (because a team was late) or it just took too long with fouls or injuries or other unforeseen delays.

Peace

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Freshman games in my area usually start at 4:30pm and we're happy to just have the teams there to start the game on time. We don't really enforce the 10 minute rule for sub-varsity games as there is too much outside of the team's control. I'd ask your assigner whether or not they wanted the 10 minute rule strictly enforced for sub-varsity games before I'd start issuing technical fouls for that.

On the freshman games I do, the games mostly don't start before 6 pm. Actually almost any weeknight game I'm available to work doesn't start before six. Traffic in this area, even outside the city limits of Chicago, can be an absolute bear. I've never and will never have a technical foul because the visitors are late getting to the school.

The OP game in question, however, was a Saturday morning affair and it was the home coach that was potentially late to the table with the book. That's why I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and an interesting question to pose.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Sounds like your partner is full of himself and takes 9am freshman games way too seriously.

I won't even begin to apply this to a 7pm varsity contest because this would NEVER happen in that situation. I hate to use the word "never", but let's be realistic. This would never happen. That's why this coach and his players are involved in a 9am Saturday game.

Definitely not fair to my partner. He's an official who works hard and works all levels. As others in my area can attest, there's a lot of competition to get to a full varsity schedule.

None of us take 9 am freshman games *too* seriously, but we don't blow them off either like some here suggest they might. And JRut is right. Freshman coaches around here tend to think they're coaching in the Big Ten.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bas2456

On the freshman games I do, the games mostly don't start before 6 pm. Actually almost any weeknight game I'm available to work doesn't start before six. Traffic in this area, even outside the city limits of Chicago, can be an absolute bear. I've never and will never have a technical foul because the visitors are late getting to the school.

The OP game in question, however, was a Saturday morning affair and it was the home coach that was potentially late to the table with the book. That's why I thought it was kind of an interesting situation and an interesting question to pose.

So to be clear, you take the book rules more seriously on a Saturday morning than you do a Monday night?

Honestly, like I said, I'm not calling this in a freshman game unless it's so late we have to wait for the scorer to fill the book out. At 9 minutes, I'm not even thinking about it.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by bas2456

None of us take 9 am freshman games *too* seriously, but we don't blow them off either like some here suggest they might.

I don't see anyone here suggesting they would "blow off" a freshman game, regardless of when its played.

What people are saying is that most of us practice some common sense in deciding to deal with administrative book issues in these games.

The guys around here who call Ts for stuff like this are the same ones complaining about how they can't "move up" and their schedules never advance.