Ref kills live ball on inadvertent horn - sub?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

yes, but that has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, even if it happened in the last 59.9, the clock was stopped for the foul / FTs and not for a made basket. All the restrictions on subs surround the made basket in the last 59.9 situations.

I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.

Also, we do have the right to ignore the horn. But that requires some judgment or a way to determine that players did not react. I have an older video with a situation where a horn was blown in the Big East Tournament and players hardly reacted.

Peace

[Adam]

I rarely react to these horns. I generally find it easier to ignore on free throws. Everyone looks at me, I say "play on", and the ball never becomes dead. Problem solved.

But if I do decide to kill it, anyone who gets to the table as a sub is coming in. I have no rules support for deviating from the normal substitution rules (NFHS).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was only referencing this because you mentioned it. This is also not an NCAA situation. And I think the NCAA has changed a rule and created an A.R in order to address this situation specifically. I am not sure this is addressed in that kind of detail with the NF. I think there was a case play, but I am not sure if it is still valid or in the current books.

I agree it's not an NCAA situation.

I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used).

I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way.

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)

Hold your breath. I'm sure the answer is coming. That's if your not dead from hokding your breath about the throw in play that allows defender to stand in certain place. Rip Bob.

[Nevadaref]

For NFHS the rule is simple and clear. If the clock is stopped and the ball is dead, then a properly reported or reporting substitute shall be allowed into the game, barring the restrictions for multiple throw FTs and previously exiting players when the clock has not yet run.

Preventing a legal substitution in an NFHS contest is just making up your own rules. Quality officials don't do that.

[ballgame99]

In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.

Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub.

I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties.

In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

In the OP, let's say the sub doesn't make it to the table before we have provided it to the shooter, but the table goes ahead and blows while it is at the disposal of the shooter. I've had vet partners who go ahead and kill it, but don't let the sub in.

Same thing if the sub doesn't get to the table before we hand it to the inbounder and the horn sounds during the inbound, or even right after the inbounds. I've had partners kill the play but not allow the sub.

I tend to agree with the thinking behind this; if the sub didn't make it in time, the table can't just blow the horn and stop play whenever they feel like it. This would be ripe for abuse by a friendly home table. While there may not be rules justification for this, it seems to be fair to all parties.

In the OP, if it truly was an inadvertent horn, and the coach sneaks a sub up there, I'm fine with that.

Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Your first play is the OP.

In both, the rules are clear -- let the sub in -- no matter how "unfair" it might seem to you.

If you don't want to let the sub in, then don't blow your whistle to kill the play. Tell the shooter / inbounder to "play on."

No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

In the first play the play was dead regardless of the sub. In the second, the table is trying to get a late sub in the game.

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy. And if I just tell them to "play on" and somebody travels or double dribbles because they are confused by the random horn, then I have a mess on my hands. I will go for law and order over that.

This happens maybe twice per season, so its not a huge deal either way I guess, but if you get a table that is out of control with the horn we need to address.

[Hartsy]

Constant horns from the clock operator and coaches or bookkeepers yelling "SUB!" are 2 things I could do without. Players need to be at the table before play is ready to resume, and if I have already waved in the sub there is no need for a horn.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

No, the OP was an inadvertent horn; official kills FT attempt; then coach sends sub to table and gets them in. My first play is coach sends sub to table late, horn blows while FT is in process, official kills.

Same thing.

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=ballgame99;996551]

Ok, so the table controls when subs are late and can come in then? If we let the horn just blow randomly to let players in the game [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]we are living in a lawless society and it will be anarchy[/COLOR

Lawless society...Anarchy...😺.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree it's not an NCAA situation.

I also claim that if it *were* an NCAA situation, that the ruling would be the same and that subs would be allowed in. And, I claim that this is covered by rule in both cases and that the official does not have any discretion to "make it fair" (or whatever specific words you used).

I also claim that your blanket statement, "The NCAA is specific about the last minute of the game will not allow subs on an inadvertent horn or whistle" is false. There are times -- most times -- where the sub is allowed. If you didn't mean it as a blanket statement, then I post my clarification only for those who might mistakenly read it that way.

(And, I'm still waiting for the case play you mentioned back in post #4)

The reality to this situation it was created by the table doing something they are not supposed to be doing.

I am also not home (have not been home since Friday afternoon as a lot of) so I did not bring my book with me. Either way, it does not matter, this situation is not specifically covered in the rulebook you have the right to make some decisions. I am not just bring in subs when a table created a situation that would not have been taken. Because a team might have been unfairly penalized (like bring in a sub that would not influence action when they would not have been coming into play). Case play or not, to me unless this specific situation is covered, you have the right to decide what is the right thing to do. Always has been that way and always will be that way.

Peace