Shooting vs. passing after foul

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think we are making this too complicated.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then do not pass. It is very simple. You want me to know what is in your head, then do what looks obvious to everyone.

Again, if I am giving shots on plays after the gather and they might not leave the floor or even bring up their arms completely, I am going to not give shots on a clear pass.

Officiating is about survival IMO most of the time. You call what everyone can see. If a coach wants the opposite of everything you see, then I will ask him to tell their player to shoot. If I do not call the foul, then I do not think it was a foul. But a last minute pass to me tells me what you were doing outside of reading your mind, which I cannot do very well. Just ask me fiancée.

Peace

I'm with Jeff here. First one's definitely on the pass. Second one is not as clear. I'm not going to my partner on this to give additional information. He saw something that made it a shooting foul, that's good enough for me.

Just not that big a deal to me. Line em up, shoot the throws.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm with Jeff here. First one's definitely on the pass. Second one is not as clear. I'm not going to my partner on this to give additional information. He saw something that made it a shooting foul, that's good enough for me.

Just not that big a deal to me. Line em up, shoot the throws.

1st is definitely a pass. Second is clearly a shot. That's what I see based on my history. Official on first may not see all. If I'm providing info I'm doing it right away. "That was a pass." Everybody in the gym should know second was going to be a shot but for the foul.

Again, my history/experience is different than everybody else's. Neither one of thes plays is close to me. One is pass, 2 is shot. This is my opinion. The decisions I'd make. Jeff would decide otherwise. The important thing for me is that neither one of us cares who wins your game. We are doing best we can.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The justification is that the rule says the foul may prevent shot. Play two is as clear an example as well ever see. He's grabbed, he can't complete it. All he's left with is dumping. Your answer tells me you've never really played the game at any significant level if you don't understand that. I've been mugged going to hole, going up to shoot bumped behind backboard. All I'm left with is dumping to another player.

And still a judgment call. You make the ruling you want to make. I am not against what you saw. I am telling you what I am going to do.

Actually I did play. I played a lot. I have also officiated some time and players often assume they are fouled or flailing after any contact all the time, even when they are not even fouled. So if this player passed, then that is what he is doing. It is not that hard man!!!

I think some of you want to prove you know the rule and that is the basis for many of these conversations. Because I rarely ever see someone award shots on a clear pass. Heck we have a hard time seeing officials award shots when they were shooting and love to say, "On the floor" if the players did not jump yet.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And still a judgment call. You make the ruling you want to make. I am not against what you saw. I am telling you what I am going to do.

Actually I did play. I played a lot. I have also officiated some time and players often assume they are fouled or flailing after any contact all the time, even when they are not even fouled. So if this player passed, then that is what he is doing. It is not that hard man!!!

I think some of you want to prove you know the rule and that is the basis for many of these conversations. Because I rarely ever see someone award shots on a clear pass. Heck we have a hard time seeing officials award shots when they were shooting and love to say, "On the floor" if the players did not jump yet.

Peace

The kid had a wide open lay up and then was grabbed, Passed because of foul. It's not Rocket science. It isn't even close.

[Rich]

I'm learning on this thread....that I need to "play at a high level" to be a decent official. Perhaps I should simply pack it in.

Nah, just kidding. I find that whole line of reasoning a bunch of hooey.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The kid had a wide open lay up and then was grabbed, Passed because of foul. It's not Rocket science. It isn't even close.

That is why it is called "judgment."

And I see a lot of more easier plays that officials almost never get right. So why would I worry about this? You are right, it is no rocket science, so why do you keep making it that way?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm learning on this thread....that I need to "play at a high level" to be a decent official. Perhaps I should simply pack it in.

Nah, just kidding. I find that whole line of reasoning a bunch of hooey.

All of us are in trouble if that is the logic. Very few officials (if any) at the D1 level or the NBA ever played at that level.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is why it is called "judgment."

And I see a lot of more easier plays that officials almost never get right. So why would I worry about this? You are right, it is no rocket science, so why do you keep making it that way?

Peace

Because this is such an easy call I'm shocked you aren't giving 2.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm learning on this thread....that I need to "play at a high level" to be a decent official. Perhaps I should simply pack it in.

Nah, just kidding. I find that whole line of reasoning a bunch of hooey.

Well Rich, show me where that was said? If you think a player who passes ball after contact always does of his own volition(the contact is not a factor) then you haven't played enough. You pick the level. You should realize it by watching plays. This one is an obvious example.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Well Rich, show me where that was said? If you think a player who passes ball after contact always does of his own volition(the contact is not a factor) then you haven't played enough. You pick the level. You should realize it by watching plays. This one is an obvious example.

If it's close, I'm going with what is easiest to sell.

I don't think the second one is particularly close.

Your post implies that disagreeing on #2 means someone hasn't played at a high level. My point is that the level you PLAYED at is irrelevant to how well you officiate plays. I've worked with a few former D1 athletes who couldn't ref themselves out of a wet paper bag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Because this is such an easy call I'm shocked you aren't giving 2.

Well be shocked. A player that is shooting usually shoots. Even if they are in a bad position. And many today try to sell the fact they were fouled. I see a pass. If I do not see a pass, I think he is shooting.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

If it's close, I'm going with what is easiest to sell.

I don't think the second one is particularly close.

Which side are you on? I think it's clear the foul causes the dump. I think second is obviously 2 shots.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Which side are you on? I think it's clear the foul causes the dump. I think second is obviously 2 shots.

I agree with you.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

If it's close, I'm going with what is easiest to sell.

I don't think the second one is particularly close.

Your post implies that disagreeing on #2 means someone hasn't played at a high level. My point is that the level you PLAYED at is irrelevant to how well you officiate plays. I've worked with a few former D1 athletes who couldn't ref themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Jeff has unequivocally said that if a player after contact dumps the ball to a teammate it will always be a pass. That ignores the rule and the reality. As I said, pick a level. Contact can and has made many players in act and intending to shoot, dump. Again, saying a player who ends up dumping is always making a pass is simply wrong. Play 2 is obvious shot. I'll leave it to each here to decide what side they come down on.