Shooting vs. passing after foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I hear what your saying and we are on same page for most part but I wouldn't go quite that far. I grew up being told throw ball to rim if you hear whistle. As a player, I don't always hear whistle or process it. I want to make a play. If I'm going up to shoot like kid in layup play two, defender hits me, I know I can't get my shot off so I react at end and dump it. That's all I'm left with. I see play 2 fit that. Play one is a pass to me.

The reason I take this position is because that is what has always worked for me. Never had an issue that I can think of by not awarding shots on a clear pass off. It works for me. I am not telling anyone to do it different. If you make a call, it is your call and you will ultimately have to live with it. On both of these plays, I am calling a common foul. I am good with that choice. If someone wants to award a shot, you are not going to hear my say boo about it.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if he wants the shot, then do nothing but shoot. Getting fouled and then making that decision after the fact is kind of lame to me. If he did not want anyone to think he was passing, then do not pass. We do not need to make this that complicated.

Peace

This is what I take issue with....you will not give two shots if the ball is ultimately passed. You stated this in the post above and also in response to MD Longhorn. I'm certain you can get away with it but that's not using judgment. It's a way for you to avoid making a judgment. You've created a bright line rule for yourself. That may be best.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

This is what I take issue with....you will not give two shots if the ball is ultimately passed. You stated this in the post above and also in response to MD Longhorn. I'm certain you can get away with it but that's not using judgment. It's a way for you to avoid making a judgment. You've created a bright line rule for yourself. That may be best.

OK, but if you pass the ball or you shoot the ball, I do not have to guess or assume you were doing something else. By your logic, I should not award shots to a player that is in bad positions to shoot, but a pass would have been better right? That is why this is all judgment. And it is no different when I feel a player has gathered the ball and is shooting, but they never get rid of the ball or jump. I use cues of their behavior when they are fouled to make that ruling.

I actually have not created any line for myself. I just think this is not that hard. What you are suggesting seems hard and makes a lot of other assumptions when the players do what they do. Remember, I guess I did not play enough big time basketball to know what a player is ultimately doing.

Peace

Originally Posted by Adam

I would never approach a partner with this information. The fact that he/she judged it to be a shot is sufficient for me, regardless of what a player does after that. If you want to approach it differently (such as the way Rut does), go for it. But if my partner comes to me and tells me the ball was passed after the foul, I'll politely thank him for the information and remind him that we have two shots.

Never?? Really? Did you even watch the plays? Do you not want to get the play right? So if you and the coach saw the player pass as in Play 1 and the coach asks you why you didn't help your partner, what would you say?

[so cal lurker]

From my comfy seat in the stands, this seems as one of the less consistently called plays in HS. I see plays where the player passes (and seemed to be entirely setting up the pass from the start) get free throws, and the player who gets mugged while trying to release the ball on a shot who then shuffles it away get told he wasn't shooting. And even from the handful of posts above, it is pretty clear there is quite a spectrum of how refs who take this stuff seriously see these plays.

IMHO, the question should be whether the player was in the act of shooting at the moment of the foul -- and it should be entirely irrelevant if the foul causes him to change to a pass. (And yes, I recognize that is not always easy to tell.)