Shooting vs. passing after foul

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I do not care what others decide. I was not asking for a vote. I know what I am going to do and you are making this like other things, very complicated. It is not that hard. It is a play where an official has to make a judgment. Just like the Kansas game last night, there was a judgment made. That play was more obvious. This play shows a player jumping, but passing. Again, I do not know when or who fouled him as there were 2 players there. And still, I am giving a pass if I blew the whistle. And I might tell my partner what I saw. But again, they are big boys, they can decide for themselves what they should call.

Peace

Not hard. Obvious foul, obvious shooting foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Not hard. Obvious foul, obvious shooting foul.

You can keep repeating this, it does not make it so. I do not even know who the foul was on and I do not think it is at all obvious from our angle. Now what?

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can keep repeating this, it does not make it so. I do not even know who the foul was on and I do not think it is at all obvious from our angle. Now what?

Peace

I said I give up.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I said I give up.....

I am curious why you are trying to convince me anyway?

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am curious why you are trying to convince me anyway?

Peace

I'm not. You're as hard headed as I am. I just didn't want to let you have last reply. Just goofing off. You win. You are officially a bigger hard head than me..take care...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm not. You're as hard headed as I am. I just didn't want to let you have last reply. Just goofing off. You win. You are officially a bigger hard head than me..take care...

I am not being hard headed. I have been doing this long enough to make a judgment one way or the other. I think the video is not terribly helpful as I have evaluated many officials, only to have them give me more information by what they say when you ask them about the play. I even said I do not care what you do in this play. You will have to live with your call, just as I will have to do the same.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not being hard headed. I have been doing this long enough to make a judgment one way or the other. I think the video is not terribly helpful as I have evaluated many officials, only to have them give me more information by what they say when you ask them about the play. I even said I do not care what you do in this play. You will have to live with your call, just as I will have to do the same.

Peace

I'm not worried about me or you. I just want any younger official who sees this to realize it's clearly a shooting foul. Not even close. They can choose to believe you or me. That is up to them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm not worried about me or you. I just want any younger official who sees this to realize it's clearly a shooting foul. Not even close. They can choose to believe you or me. That is up to them.

That is great, but if I showed this to a room full of officials, you would have a lot of different opinions. I know it, because I show video all the time like this and you get all kinds of opinions. So you can in your noble way try to tell people what to think, there will be someone that tells them to do it another way. Now that is a fact. It is a fact becasue rarely do I have a video like this that is not have a debate on a close play. And on this site people have stated it is not that "obvious."

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is great, but if I showed this to a room full of officials, you would have a lot of different opinions. I know it, because I show video all the time like this and you get all kinds of opinions. So you can in your noble way try to tell people what to think, there will be someone that tells them to do it another way. Now that is a fact. It is a fact becasue rarely do I have a video like this that is not have a debate on a close play. And on this site people have stated it is not that "obvious."

Peace

No, I really don't think there'd be a lot of different opinions. I've been wrong before but this isn't that close.

[APG]

No shot on either of the plays...

And yes I would absolutely come in with information. It's on my partner if he/she wants to use it or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

No, I really don't think there'd be a lot of different opinions. I've been wrong before but this isn't that close.

You must not have done many presentations with video?

Peace

[BlueDevilRef]

I think second play is 70/30 a shooting foul. But I'll say this, pass was after the whistle and I'll be damned if I'm listening to a partner who was 60 feet away as new trail on a fast break when I'm there on top of it.

[Adam]

We want players to play through contact because we may not consider it a foul. Good players learn how to adjust to contact, and they learn to do it quickly. When a shooter gets fouled, our whistles are often a bit late (for good reason). I'm not going to penalize a player for adjusting to contact that I may or may not call a foul.

I'm not saying the whole play doesn't matter. On the first video, I'm probably not giving free throws, but I'm also not approaching my partner if he makes the call and judges it differently. I don't approach partners on judgment calls, and this is pure judgment.

Passing the ball after a foul does not necessarily negate the fact that I thought it was a shot.

I recognize others see this differently.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Passing the ball after a foul does not necessarily negate the fact that I thought it was a shot.

I think this is the key. I haven't seen this in so many words in this thread, but if I'm not mistaken officials have posted here that:

"I believe he was attempting a shot, but if he doesn't continue the attempt he still doesn't get free throws."

If this is the case, it has no rules support.

I agree with Jeff that any actual contact on the second play is very difficult to see, but that isn't the point of contention. The movement the player makes is so unnatural that whether he was fouled or simply fumbled the ball on his way up, there's very little doubt in my mind that his original intent was to shoot.

On the first play I'm fine with the no shot call.

Never say never, but unless asked, I would be very unlikely to bring information to a partner about this. I see nothing egregious enough to consider doing so on either of these plays.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Four years ago when I was a rookie I had a game where a partner called a shooting foul but I saw that the player passed the ball after the contact occurred. Here's the thread.

My initial question was when to bring such information to a partner, but this play sparked a spirited debate of whether to award a player free throws when he appears to be shooting before contact, but after contact happens he passes the ball to a teammate.

I present two of these plays for your consideration. Both happened in the same game. In Play 1 my partner said "you're killing me man" when I brought the info but changed it to OOB. In Play 2 later in the game I also brought information but he ignored it and repeated we were shooting two. What say you guys?

Play 1: https://streamable.com/4b589

Play 2: https://streamable.com/fzv07

Wow, lots of input and debate in this thread. So much so, I feel compelled to provide feedback.

Play 1: The play came from the T so technically wouldn't it be his call? (don't answer, just a thought). I thought it was clear that the kid passed. The L and T refs thought so, as well as ALL of the players. The kid jumped and passed directly to a teammate. With 12 out of 13 people thinking it was a pass, going to the reporting official with that info seems legit to me. I would have preferred that the L, once he sees the T start to go, also take a few steps towards the reporting official.

Play 2: IMO, the player was clearly shooting when the foul both occurred and when it was whistled. Just because a player does not shoot, does not mean it is not a shooting foul. (prime example is when a foul prevents a player from actually being able to shoot).

Again, just my 2 cents, no response requested. This thread is long isn't it, lol.