Shooting vs. passing after foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I think folks who say we shouldn't watch the whole play to determine intent of the shooter and that we must decide at the moment of contact are on one end. I think those who say whatever the contact, it makes no difference, if he dumps it i'll never give him two are on the other end.

I think the answer and the rules require it to be something in the middle of those two.

You again are making this overly simplistic. I think you see the entire play so the entire picture and the result of the contact is obvious. That is why you wait. I would not say whatever the contact is it does not matter. But in the second video, if you wait, it might be clear if he is shooting or the result of the contact. To me the contact is not very clear on the video as I am not sure who contacted him, but he passes the ball the same. He could have shot the ball just the same too.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You again are making this overly simplistic. I think you see the entire play so the entire picture and the result of the contact is obvious. That is why you wait. I would not say whatever the contact is it does not matter. But in the second video, if you wait, it might be clear if he is shooting or the result of the contact. To me the contact is not very clear on the video as I am not sure who contacted him, but he passes the ball the same. He could have shot the ball just the same too.

Peace

We have a player going in for wide open layup, 5 does something, we have a whistle and then, most importantly, we have a player's body react in an unnatural way. Then he dumps to a smaller player in the lane. We weren't there but i think by those facts something clearly happened. The question for me is "did the foul cause the dump?" If the answer is yes i will give him two. It isn't "In spite of the foul COULD he still have shot the ball?" His body reaction immediately after whistle matters a lot to me here.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You again are making this overly simplistic. I think you see the entire play so the entire picture and the result of the contact is obvious. That is why you wait. I would not say whatever the contact is it does not matter. But in the second video, if you wait, it might be clear if he is shooting or the result of the contact. To me the contact is not very clear on the video as I am not sure who contacted him, but he passes the ball the same. He could have shot the ball just the same too.

Peace

The official on the court thought the contact was sufficient for a foul. Before he could blow his whistle, the player adjust to the contact by passing instead of shooting. It seems obvious to me that he was planning to shoot when the contact was made, regardless of what he decided to do in the split second between the contact and the whistle (the whistle was quick, quick enough for the player to know a foul would be called).

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm comfortable knowing that other officials may judge this differently, but if it's a play I don't even have a whistle on, I'm not offering assistance or information. I'll tell him what I saw if he asks.

On the first play, I'm going to backtrack a bit. I'd likely ask him for clarification due to my assumption that he was going with a non-shooting foul. Everyone had a whistle, so I wouldn't feel my input was unwarranted there.

I also agree with the others that it's contact that could easily have been passed on.

[BlueDevilRef]

I think second play is 70/30 a shooting foul. But I'll say this, pass was after the whistle and I'll be damned if I'm listening to a partner who was 60 feet away as new trail on a fast break when I'm there on top of it.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Four years ago when I was a rookie I had a game where a partner called a shooting foul but I saw that the player passed the ball after the contact occurred. Here's the thread.

My initial question was when to bring such information to a partner, but this play sparked a spirited debate of whether to award a player free throws when he appears to be shooting before contact, but after contact happens he passes the ball to a teammate.

I present two of these plays for your consideration. Both happened in the same game. In Play 1 my partner said "you're killing me man" when I brought the info but changed it to OOB. In Play 2 later in the game I also brought information but he ignored it and repeated we were shooting two. What say you guys?

Play 1: https://streamable.com/4b589

Play 2: https://streamable.com/fzv07

Wow, lots of input and debate in this thread. So much so, I feel compelled to provide feedback.

Play 1: The play came from the T so technically wouldn't it be his call? (don't answer, just a thought). I thought it was clear that the kid passed. The L and T refs thought so, as well as ALL of the players. The kid jumped and passed directly to a teammate. With 12 out of 13 people thinking it was a pass, going to the reporting official with that info seems legit to me. I would have preferred that the L, once he sees the T start to go, also take a few steps towards the reporting official.

Play 2: IMO, the player was clearly shooting when the foul both occurred and when it was whistled. Just because a player does not shoot, does not mean it is not a shooting foul. (prime example is when a foul prevents a player from actually being able to shoot).

Again, just my 2 cents, no response requested. This thread is long isn't it, lol.

[Raymond]

Now that I seen the video so I can say one thing for sure, some of y'all are horrible at describing action.

Play 1: obvious pass... I would offer that information also. Weather not he takes it is up to him. But it is definitely a play I would talk about in a locker room, especially with multiple whistles on it.

Play 2: hard to say. But considering he called the first play a shot, at least he's consistent. I would offer no information on the second play because he had that play all to himself.

The second play I would have no problem if he considered it a shot. But that first play needs to be talked about by the crew.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[deecee]

My $.02. I'm calling whichever is more believable. I wouldn't have a whistle on either. If I was the calling official I would first ask what does the C on a play pulling away from him down the opposite side of the paint have a "look" or opinion.

On the second one I may think it's cute that you have an opinion from 60 feet away.

Help me on black and white calls, oob, did the ball go in the basket. Don't help me on judgement. We can talk about it in the locker. I can come to you for help as in ask you did you have a look and do you think it's shooting or a pass.

Nothing worse than offering unnecessary help. Giving coaches extra ammo.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

My $.02. I'm calling whichever is more believable. I wouldn't have a whistle on either. If I was the calling official I would first ask what does the C on a play pulling away from him down the opposite side of the paint have a "look" or opinion.

On the second one I may think it's cute that you have an opinion from 60 feet away.

Help me on black and white calls, oob, did the ball go in the basket. Don't help me on judgement. We can talk about it in the locker. I can come to you for help as in ask you did you have a look and do you think it's shooting or a pass.

Nothing worse than offering unnecessary help. Giving coaches extra ammo.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

You are absolutely right that somebody has to give info on whether ball went in or not. If I'm lead and center and I double up on call the trail has to know what happened to ball.
Now, I don't care what you want or not...if I see a play like number 2 I'm going to tell you before you report give him 2. You will or won't agree. I won't fight you over it 99 percent of time. If this play, number 2, happens at crunch time and you say it was on the pass there will be a wrestling match. Again, I can't make anybody see what I see.

APG, I want to hear from you. Why are you not giving 2 on second play.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You are absolutely right that somebody has to give info on whether ball went in or not. If I'm lead and center and I double up on call the trail has to know what happened to ball.
Now, I don't care what you want or not...if I see a play like number 2 I'm going to tell you before you report give him 2. You will or won't agree. I won't fight you over it 99 percent of time. If this play, number 2, happens at crunch time and you say it was on the pass there will be a wrestling match. Again, I can't make anybody see what I see.

APG, I want to hear from you. Why are you not giving 2 on second play.

If you feel so strongly on a judgement call I'll give it up to you. I'll also give up handling the coach and the fallout to you as well. So you should be ready to accept those responsibilities. I would never question a partners judgement call during a game. He saw the play that I saw from a different perspective. I would also black line such a partner.

I'm guessing from the OP when the partner said "you're killing me" it probably because he has an opinion on more judgement calls than most (which is any number greater than 0) during play.

[jamesshank]

Famous last words, "I was at a camp", A1 drove to the basket and clearly was fouled on a pass attempt going up in the lane so I called a non-shooting foul; an evaluator ask why it was not a shooting foul and I explained what I saw; I was informed that all players in the lane should be considered in the act of shooting and it should be a shooting foul.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Kansas Ref]

*Wow, really just because they're in-the-lane? That is quite an "absolute" dogma to use as a "decision-making path" when you are adjudicating the consequence of a live game action.
Nevertheless, these "either vs. or" type of plays are what adds good challenges to our officiating work.