Backcourt Violation?

[Spence]

I seem to remember an old case play on this.

Team A has ball in FC. B1 smacks the ball down into the FC and then it bounces over the center line. A1 catches the ball while in the back court before the ball bounces in the backcourt.

I seem to remember this being a backcourt violation. Am I remembering correctly?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Spence

I seem to remember an old case play on this.

Team A has ball in FC. B1 smacks the ball down into the FC and then it bounces over the center line. A1 catches the ball while in the back court before the ball bounces in the backcourt.

I seem to remember this being a backcourt violation. Am I remembering correctly?

The logic of the old interp (2007) would have this be a violation. The rule as written requires that A be the last to touch the ball "before" it goes into the BC. That requirement is not met by any reasonable definition of "before."

And if it was a violation, it would also be a violation if A1 was holding or dribbling the ball in the BC as long as B1 was standing in the FC.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Adam

The logic of the old interp (2007) would have this be a violation. The rule as written requires that A be the last to touch the ball "before" it goes into the BC. That requirement is not met by any reasonable definition of "before."

And if it was a violation, it would also be a violation if A1 was holding or dribbling the ball in the BC as long as B1 was standing in the FC.

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.

At what point is the ball in the backcourt in my example? When it's caught by A1 , correct? So the question is regarding the ball not touching the BC. It's not in the BC until it's caught by A1. I'm sure there was an old case play on this but can't find it.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by Spence

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.

At what point is the ball in the backcourt in my example? When it's caught by A1 , correct? So the question is regarding the ball not touching the BC. It's not in the BC until it's caught by A1. I'm sure there was an old case play on this but can't find it.

I think THIS should answer your question, no? If B is the last to touch it, wouldn't it make it a legal touch for A to then touch it in BC? BC is the weakest of my rules knowledge, so I'm just asking here.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I think THIS should answer your question, no? If B is the last to touch it, wouldn't it make it a legal touch for A to then touch it in BC? BC is the weakest of my rules knowledge, so I'm just asking here.

You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Spence

You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

That would be B, because as soon as A caught it, it gained BC status. The last to touch before it went to the BC was B.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by Spence

You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

I missed the point of your question, and skipped over the fact that the ball had not obtained backcourt status. Let me ask you this:
If A1 in BC passes to A2 in FC, but the ball does not bounce, does the ball have FC status?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Spence

You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

The old case play was something like this: A1 is in control in his BC passes the ball and B1 standing in FC bats ball out of air back to A1. They said it was a violation because ball had FC status when A1 caught it so he was last to touch and also had back court status because he was standing in BC. Simultaneously.

As Adam said, the rule says BEFORE. At most, we have the ball simultaneously in FC and BC when A1 touches it. The rule says player can't be first to touch ball after it been in team control in FC if she or teammate last touched ball in FC BEFORE it went to BC. This is simultaneous, not before. i don't have a violation.

[Rob1968]

The ball maintains frontcourt status while in the air, and so, when the team A player, standing in backcourt is first to touch the ball, that player becomes the last to touch the ball while it has frontcourt status, and in the same instant, he/she is the first to touch the ball when it obtains backcourt status.

Additionally, if the player had allowed the ball to touch the floor in team A's backcourt, thus obtaining backcourt status before that player touched the ball, no violation would occur.

The difficulty in the logic is that the same instant of touching constitutes both a frontcourt and a backcourt status. Thus, that logic is seen as cumbersome, faulty, and difficult to explain to observers, especially coaches.

[Camron Rust]

[QUOTE=Rob1968;995339]The ball maintains frontcourt status while in the air, and so, when the team A player, standing in backcourt is first to touch the ball, that player becomes the last to touch the ball while it has frontcourt status, and in the same instant, he/she is the first to touch the ball when it obtains backcourt status.
/QUOTE]
That is not correct.

The rule requires that A be the last to touch the ball BEFORE it returns to the backcourt. "Before" is a very clear word. Touching it in the backcourt is not touching it before touching it in the backcourt.

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The difficulty in the logic is that the same instant of touching constitutes both a frontcourt and a backcourt status. Thus, that logic is seen as cumbersome, faulty, and difficult to explain to observers, especially coaches.

And simply wrong.

[Adam]

If the violation was for causing the ball to have BC status, this would be a violation.

That's not what the rule is, though.

[Nevadaref]

[QUOTE=Camron Rust;995356]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The ball maintains frontcourt status while in the air, and so, when the team A player, standing in backcourt is first to touch the ball, that player becomes the last to touch the ball while it has frontcourt status, and in the same instant, he/she is the first to touch the ball when it obtains backcourt status.
/QUOTE]

The rule requires that A be the last to touch the ball BEFORE it returns to the backcourt. "Before" is a very clear word. Touching it in the backcourt is not touching it before touching it in the backcourt.

Yep, I tell people that something which occurs simultaneously with something else certainly didn't happen before it. That usually ends the discussion.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Spence

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.

At what point is the ball in the backcourt in my example? When it's caught by A1 , correct? So the question is regarding the ball not touching the BC. It's not in the BC until it's caught by A1. I'm sure there was an old case play on this but can't find it.

Here is another thought. Art 1. Player shall not be first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the FC if HE, SHE or a TEAMMATE last touched or was touched by the ball IN THE FC before it went to the BC.

The "in the FC" language refers to the location of the player when he or she touches the ball. Not the status of the ball. In your play team A has control in FC. B1, located in FC, deflects ball into air. A2 steps into BC. He is now IN THE BC, not the FC. He catches ball in air. Yes the ball had FC status and simultaneously gets BC status when he touches it. But A2 was clearly in the BC when he touched the ball. B1 was the last person located in the FC to touch the ball.

Let me know if there is a hole in this thought.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Here is another thought. Art 1. Player shall not be first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the FC if HE, SHE or a TEAMMATE last touched or was touched by the ball IN THE FC before it went to the BC.

The "in the FC" language refers to the location of the player when he or she touches the ball. Not the status of the ball. In your play team A has control in FC. B1, located in FC, deflects ball into air. A2 steps into BC. He is now IN THE BC, not the FC. He catches ball in air. Yes the ball had FC status and simultaneously gets BC status when he touches it. But A2 was clearly in the BC when he touched the ball. B1 was the last person located in the FC to touch the ball.

Let me know if there is a hole in this thought.

What is the point you're trying to make? The location of the player and the status of the ball when he touches it are one and the same.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is the point you're trying to make? The location of the player and the status of the ball when he touches it are one and the same.

When A2 touches the ball he is in the BC. The fact that the ball had FC status and simultaneously gained BC status with A2 touch doesn't matter because A2 is unquestionably in the BC when he touches. He cannot be the last to touch in FC because he's physically in the BC.