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-   -   Backcourt Violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101986-backcourt-violation.html)

Spence Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:54pm

Backcourt Violation?
 
I seem to remember an old case play on this.

Team A has ball in FC. B1 smacks the ball down into the FC and then it bounces over the center line. A1 catches the ball while in the back court before the ball bounces in the backcourt.

I seem to remember this being a backcourt violation. Am I remembering correctly?

Adam Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995327)
I seem to remember an old case play on this.

Team A has ball in FC. B1 smacks the ball down into the FC and then it bounces over the center line. A1 catches the ball while in the back court before the ball bounces in the backcourt.

I seem to remember this being a backcourt violation. Am I remembering correctly?

The logic of the old interp (2007) would have this be a violation. The rule as written requires that A be the last to touch the ball "before" it goes into the BC. That requirement is not met by any reasonable definition of "before."

And if it was a violation, it would also be a violation if A1 was holding or dribbling the ball in the BC as long as B1 was standing in the FC.

Spence Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 995329)
The logic of the old interp (2007) would have this be a violation. The rule as written requires that A be the last to touch the ball "before" it goes into the BC. That requirement is not met by any reasonable definition of "before."

And if it was a violation, it would also be a violation if A1 was holding or dribbling the ball in the BC as long as B1 was standing in the FC.

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.


At what point is the ball in the backcourt in my example? When it's caught by A1 , correct? So the question is regarding the ball not touching the BC. It's not in the BC until it's caught by A1. I'm sure there was an old case play on this but can't find it.

UNIgiantslayers Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995331)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.


At what point is the ball in the backcourt in my example? When it's caught by A1 , correct? So the question is regarding the ball not touching the BC. It's not in the BC until it's caught by A1. I'm sure there was an old case play on this but can't find it.

I think THIS should answer your question, no? If B is the last to touch it, wouldn't it make it a legal touch for A to then touch it in BC? BC is the weakest of my rules knowledge, so I'm just asking here.

Spence Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 995333)
I think THIS should answer your question, no? If B is the last to touch it, wouldn't it make it a legal touch for A to then touch it in BC? BC is the weakest of my rules knowledge, so I'm just asking here.

You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

Adam Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995334)
You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

That would be B, because as soon as A caught it, it gained BC status. The last to touch before it went to the BC was B.

UNIgiantslayers Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995334)
You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

I missed the point of your question, and skipped over the fact that the ball had not obtained backcourt status. Let me ask you this:
If A1 in BC passes to A2 in FC, but the ball does not bounce, does the ball have FC status?

Spence Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 995336)
I missed the point of your question, and skipped over the fact that the ball had not obtained backcourt status. Let me ask you this:
If A1 in BC passes to A2 in FC, but the ball does not bounce, does the ball have FC status?

Yes.

UNIgiantslayers Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995337)
Yes.

So B1 is the last to touch it while it has FC status before A1 gathers the ball in the BC, giving the ball BC status.

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the
frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before
it went to the backcourt.

Rob1968 Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:58pm

The ball maintains frontcourt status while in the air, and so, when the team A player, standing in backcourt is first to touch the ball, that player becomes the last to touch the ball while it has frontcourt status, and in the same instant, he/she is the first to touch the ball when it obtains backcourt status.

Additionally, if the player had allowed the ball to touch the floor in team A's backcourt, thus obtaining backcourt status before that player touched the ball, no violation would occur.

The difficulty in the logic is that the same instant of touching constitutes both a frontcourt and a backcourt status. Thus, that logic is seen as cumbersome, faulty, and difficult to explain to observers, especially coaches.

BigCat Tue Dec 20, 2016 01:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995334)
You ignored the question I asked.

If the ball never touched the backcourt i.e. the floor then who was the last to touch it when it had FC status?

The old case play was something like this: A1 is in control in his BC passes the ball and B1 standing in FC bats ball out of air back to A1. They said it was a violation because ball had FC status when A1 caught it so he was last to touch and also had back court status because he was standing in BC. Simultaneously.

As Adam said, the rule says BEFORE. At most, we have the ball simultaneously in FC and BC when A1 touches it. The rule says player can't be first to touch ball after it been in team control in FC if she or teammate last touched ball in FC BEFORE it went to BC. This is simultaneous, not before. i don't have a violation.

Amesman Tue Dec 20, 2016 02:00pm

Look at it another way: If B1 bounces a ball over an OOB line and A1 catches it before it lands, is the ball already OOB or only when A1 catches it?

Spence Tue Dec 20, 2016 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 995340)
The old case play was something like this: A1 is in control in his BC passes the ball and B1 standing in FC bats ball out of air back to A1. They said it was a violation because ball had FC status when A1 caught it so he was last to touch and also had back court status because he was standing in BC. Simultaneously.

As Adam said, the rule says BEFORE. At most, we have the ball simultaneously in FC and BC when A1 touches it. The rule says player can't be first to touch ball after it been in team control in FC if she or teammate last touched ball in FC BEFORE it went to BC. This is simultaneous, not before. i don't have a violation.

The case play you cite is not the one I am recalling.

BigCat Tue Dec 20, 2016 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 995342)
The case play you cite is not the one I am recalling.

I don't recall your play. Principles the same.

kelvinsmerli Tue Dec 20, 2016 02:47pm

No it IS NOT.

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