Coach Berating Players

[griblets]

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

No. Not our problem. If it's that bad the parents/school can deal with it. Unless he's dropping f bombs he can treat his players like garbage for all I care. He won't get the same luxury with me that's for sure.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

No. Not our problem. If it's that bad the parents/school can deal with it. Unless he's dropping f bombs he can treat his players like garbage for all I care. He won't get the same luxury with me that's for sure.

His first cross statement towards me would get an "I'm not one of your players" response from me.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

His first cross statement towards me would get an "I'm not one of your players" response from me.

I've used that line before in similar situations.

[billyu2]

I think a case could be made to penalize the coach. Unsportsmanlike conduct is unsportsmanlike conduct. Doesn't matter who it is directed at. If the verbal abuse of the kids is unquestionably severe or vulgar, sure, the parents/school will likely deal with it later; but at the moment someone may have to step up. I would take the risk (right or wrong) of putting a stop to it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I think a case could be made to penalize the coach. Unsportsmanlike conduct is unsportsmanlike conduct. Doesn't matter who it is directed at. If the verbal abuse of the kids is unquestionably severe or vulgar, sure, the parents/school will likely deal with it later; but at the moment someone may have to step up. I would take the risk (right or wrong) of putting a stop to it.

It could, and there's a case play / interp to that effect. But, don't be that guy.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I think a case could be made to penalize the coach. Unsportsmanlike conduct is unsportsmanlike conduct. Doesn't matter who it is directed at. If the verbal abuse of the kids is unquestionably severe or vulgar, sure, the parents/school will likely deal with it later; but at the moment someone may have to step up. I would take the risk (right or wrong) of putting a stop to it.

Please don't interject your personal morals or beliefs into this type of situation. This is for the parents or the school. The fact that this coach is coaching could mean that the parents/school are ok with it. Not our place.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.
Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

If the parents have a problem, then the parents are the ones who need to address this. I would if it were my child. I wouldn't expect a game official to take care of this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

Not my problem at all. There are places that have no issues with certain language being used or how it is used. Parents control that along with school districts that may or may not have certain standards. If as officials get involved in that type of stuff in those places, you might be getting rid of everyone in the first few minutes if you do not want to hear certain kind of language or certain kind of interaction.

And I will take it a step further. I think we as adults get way to worried about things that do not involve our kids. When I was a kid the language that was used in my presence was a lot worse than I hear to day in almost any situation and we are so concerned when a kid hears something that we were constantly exposed to years ago, but we act like we have to protect children from everything. If the parents have an issue, that is for them to address. But the reality is there are many things going on around kids that many of us do not seem to accept. Heck I was watching Rated R movies long before the age of 17 or 18 and heard Richard Pryor and other comedians long before I was that age and somehow I turned out not using that language in the right situations. There are a lot worse things we can worry about IMO.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

In my 46 years officiating I can honestly say that I have had this problem only twice and neither of them were at the H.S. or college level. They both happened the same Summer about 20 years ago in games that used NFHS Basketball Rules: The first during the YBOA Girls' Nationals 13U Pool Play game and the second during the AAU Boys' 13U Nationals Pool Play game, and in both games I had the same partner (Daryl H. Long, who was a long time poster here until he a stroke the past August) who was the R and I was the U in both games.


YBOA Game: The HC of the designated Home Team started verbally abusing his players from the time the Ball left Daryl's hand for the Jump Ball to start the game, and this abuse was non-stop for the enter 1st QT. It was our opinion then, and it is still our opinion now, that the HC's actions bordered on child abuse.

When the 1st QT was over the HC's verbal tirade continued in the huddle. As I checked the Scorebook during the break between quarters I very discretely told the mother who was keeping Home Team's book at the Table that in my home state of Ohio, what her HC was doing would be considered felony child abuse. The mother looked at me with a very stunned look on her face. I then turned away and walked to take my position at the appropriate place on the court for the 2nd QT AP Throw-in. Before Daryl administered the throw-in I noticed the mother talking with the HC while they both looked at me. For the next three quarters the HC hardly said a word to his players and they played much better basketball for the remainder of the game.


AAU Game: Mid-way through the 2nd QT the HC of the designated Home Team sent in H-6 into the game. H-6 was the son of one of the H-ACs. This particular AC was a police officer of a suburb of a major city in the South. The first time H-6 touched the Ball he made a pass that went straight out-of-bounds. H-HC immediately sent in H-7 to replace H-6. As H-6 went to the bench his father stepped onto the court, grabbed his son by his shoulders and flung him into a chair (the benches consisted of folding chairs).

Daryl and I stopped everything. We knew that we could not, by rule, charge him with a TF, but we could invoke NFHS R3-S3 (it is also the same rule and section in the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules Books) to remove him from the premises. We went to H-HC and told him we could not charge his AC with a TF but that we could require his AC had to leave the premises. The H-HC did not want to make his AC leave nor did his AC want to leave. At that point we got the Site Manager involved (the Principal for the school where the game was being played). We explained the situation to the Site Manager and he took the bull by the tale and faced the situation. The Site Manager told the AC that he either remove himself to the parking lot and not to come back into the building after the game was over or that he would call the police, have him arrested, and that he would have to explain to his police chief back home as to why he had been arrested. The AC left without saying another word.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

Short answer: No.

MTD's situations are different, IMO. I'd be very quick to deal with a case of physical assault. Verbal stuff is on the parents, IMO.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Adam

Short answer: No.

MTD's situations are different, IMO. I'd be very quick to deal with a case of physical assault. Verbal stuff is on the parents, IMO.

Adam:

I do not think that verbal abuse should not be ignored in a JrHS or HS setting. Remember we are dealing with adolescents not adults.

Children are taught to not challenge adult authority figures. Child care advocates know that in certain situations will feel too intimidated to report the verbal abuse by their coach. Parents can also feel that intimidation. The coach-player dynamic can be a difficult one to navigate for children especially at the JrHS age. As officials we are neutral observers in the game and therefore in a better position to take action when verbal abuse is observed.

I would like to think that we as officials would be able to say that they know what is inappropriate conduct by a coach and will take the initiative to stop such conduct by a coach.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Adam:

I do not think that verbal abuse should not be ignored in a JrHS or HS setting. Remember we are dealing with adolescents not adults.

Children are taught to not challenge adult authority figures. Child care advocates know that in certain situations will feel too intimidated to report the verbal abuse by their coach. Parents can also feel that intimidation. The coach-player dynamic can be a difficult one to navigate for children especially at the JrHS age. As officials we are neutral observers in the game and therefore in a better position to take action when verbal abuse is observed.

I would like to think that we as officials would be able to say that they know what is inappropriate conduct by a coach and will take the initiative to stop such conduct by a coach.

MTD, Sr.

Then report it to the governing body, or let the parents deal with it (like you did). If it's egregious enough to get my attention and make me uncomfortable, I'll report it to whomever governs that program.

I'm not a lawyer nor a DHS professional, so I don't know what constitutes verbal abuse. I won't pretend to make any such declarations, either.

AAU-style (non-scholastic) ball, I'll be willing to bet that he'd start it with me as well. I'm not all that likely to give him the "I'm not one of your players" warning, I may just stick him as soon as he gets inappropriate with me.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

Obviously if a coach is using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures then that is something as BNR said that is within our jurisdiction to address.

But there is a saying about "doing too much" and that is exactly what you are doing as an official interjecting yourself in this situation simply b/c you subjectively think a coach is "berating/belittling", "crushing their spirit", or "couldn't say anything positive" to his kids.

As others have said these are issues for parents, school administrators, and the kids themselves to address. Absent loud profanity/inappropriate language or obscenities we have no business interjecting ourselves into the coach/player dynamic like this. And if you consider this to be "inappropriate language" I would suggest you are wrong as I believe that applies to language that is not profane but inappropriately references things like ethnicity/religion/sexual/threatening, etc.

I think its much more likely that parents would be upset with you for overstepping your bounds than then would be to percieve you as the type of protective hero you seem to think is needed here.

As others have also said, if it bothers you that much I would send an email to my assignor and suggest its something he should address with the AD of the school and/or a sanctioning body.

But issuing a T here is a particularly bad idea IMO.

[billyu2]

Since I wasn’t there to observe Griblets’ situation I had to respond according to how he described the two events. When he uses words such as “absolutely atrocious” and “sickening” to describe the coach’s behavior/treatment of his players I have to take his words for what they mean. Some on this forum have fallen in love with the word “egregious” as in, “Unless it (some minor rules infraction) was egregious, I won’t enforce it.” Okay, if we agree we should enforce a rule about a minor obscure action only when it has reached a level that is egregious, why is it that a major meltdown in a coach’s conduct/behavior that everyone in the gym can see, that one of our colleagues describes as absolutely atrocious or egregious, does not even warrant at least addressing the coach about it? And it’s not a matter of “don’t go looking for trouble” either. The “trouble” had already presented itself loud and clear for all to see, waiting for us to make a decision: Do I address it or let it pass? Regarding comments such as, “Moral police? No thanks.” and “Please don’t interject my personal moral and ethical beliefs” - well good grief! Those are the beliefs of the NFHS regarding their standards and expectations of “moral and ethical behavior, and upholding the honor and dignity of the profession” as worded in their Coaches and Officials Code of Conduct found in their rule book and addressed as a responsibility of coaches in Rule 10. It is their rule that charges officials the responsibility of jurisdiction to make decisions regarding the conduct/behavior of coaches, players and bench personnel among other things.
Their Codes for Coaches and Officials are also likely adopted and found in the basketball regulations of most of your state associations. They are in my state of Ohio.
When a situation like Griblets described occurs, do I want to be in that situation? No. Do I want to be “that guy” who feels he must at least address the coach or perhaps penalizes the coach? No. But I also don’t want to be “that guy” who crawls under the bleachers either. If a coach’s conduct/behavior can be described as “absolutely atrocious and sickening”, that behavior certainly does not meet the standards of the NFHS, your state association and most likely the school’s coaches handbook. So, when this conduct happens during a scholastic game under NFHS rules, there are only 2 or 3 people in the entire gym that, like it or not, have been given jurisdiction over that behavior at the time it occurs. Not the parents, not the school administration, not the state association and not the NFHS. The important question is not whether I want to be in that situation, or do I want to be “that guy.” I clearly do not. The question really is, if I have to make a tough decision regarding “egregious” conduct of a coach, under my game jurisdiction, do I have the guts to make it? Or do I say, “No thanks OHSAA and NFHS. I don’t want to police your moral and ethical standards for coaches.”
Griblets, I had a very similar situation occur in a state regional tournament game that would be of interest to you and perhaps some of my forum friends from Ohio. In the meantime, my advice to you is, if the behavior is as you described, address the coach asap and politely let him know that his conduct does not meet the standards of the state and national federation and, although not directed at the officials, that behavior still comes under the official’s jurisdiction and will not be tolerated. Or, if you want to have fun with it, use Mark Padgett’s story next time!
Thank you for posting your situation. I appreciate your honesty in expressing your feelings of regret for how you handled it and your request for help and support if it should happen again. I get the feeling that based on your experience, doing nothing the next time will likely not be an option. Based on my experience as well, I would agree.