coach yelling for players to foul

[deecee]

8th grade playoffs -- same rules as NFHS except slight timing differences.

earlier in the game partner makes a call and coach comes out about 3-4 feet on the court complaining to partner (partner is lead away from benches) -- i come up as trail and tell the coach if he has a problem with our calls to ask us and not to come on the court again or else it will be a T. Coach's response "Are you serious?" I look at him for a second and say "there's only one way to find out" He returns to his bench.

Now this coach is animated and what not and I already had words with the other coach who yelled across the gym "Bad Call" about 2-3 times -- when i got to the other side i told him "If you have a problem with my call address it to me but next time you call me out across the gym its going to cost you" -- at least he appologized.

Last couple minutes of the game the animated coach is losing and is yelling "FOUL -- FOUL" -- i call the foul and I go to report the nubmer and tell him if he wants his kids to foul he should call it something else as that is an intentional foul. He throws a small fit which i kinda laughed at -- "you cant be serious -- way to take this so serious -- where in the rule book does it say that". At the table is another ref who tells him that its ok to do that as long as its his strategy to stop the game clock. At the next timeout i ask him why would those explicit rules be in the rulebook and casebook if it werent to be called -- not like i gave his player an intentional i talked to him about it first. That ref didnt agree but I made it clear to him.

Couple possesions later one of his players grabs a jersey in an attempt to foul -- tweet "intentional" -- he wasnt happy but in the interest of the game i let him do his song and dance for about 3 seconds then whack. they lost by like 8 or 9.

basically what are yalls input on a coach yelling foul -- now i would never call an intentional right away but i would address it with a coach first. I will even tell him call it what every other coach calls it "x" or what ever. However in retrospect at 8th grade level i shouldve T'd him up earlier when he came on the court but i thought better to manage the situation than possibly make it worse at the time.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by deecee
basically what are yalls input on a coach yelling foul -- now i would never call an intentional right away but i would address it with a coach first. I will even tell him call it what every other coach calls it "x" or what ever. However in retrospect at 8th grade level i shouldve T'd him up earlier when he came on the court but i thought better to manage the situation than possibly make it worse at the time.

If I hear the coach yelling foul, and his team's behind, I'm looking for the first foul I can call so it don't get nasty. If it's a legitimate play on the ball, I've got a common foul and we're marching to the line, assuming we're in the bonus. Jersey grabs, bear hugs, push from behind on a layup, and any of that other non-basketball schtick is gonna get the Capital X from my forearms, 2 shots and the ball for the offended team.

[Snake~eyes]

You have to know the game situtation, is a team trying to foul or are they going for a steal? If they are trying to foul then give them an easy foul, the first one that happens otherwise the next one will be a hard foul.

Coaches can yell whatever they want, yelling foul does not make it an intentional foul nor would I make them yell something else.

Fouling is a strategic part of the game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by deecee
basically what are yalls input on a coach yelling foul

A few years ago, a FED POE contained some sentence to the effect that "If a coach tells the players to foul, it's an intentional foul."

This year (I think), FED rescinded that -- the coach's language does not determine the type of foul. The player's actions determine the type of foul.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes

If I hear the coach yelling foul, and his team's behind, I'm looking for the first foul I can call so it don't get nasty. If it's a legitimate play on the ball, I've got a common foul and we're marching to the line, assuming we're in the bonus. Jersey grabs, bear hugs, push from behind on a layup, and any of that other non-basketball schtick is gonna get the Capital X from my forearms, 2 shots and the ball for the offended team.

As a coach I teach them to go for the steal and foul in the process. If the foul doesn't get called, we are on our way with the ball which is a better outcome anyway. Occassionally the ball does pop loose without a foul but everyone is kind of anticipating foul at this point so no big whoop if a relatively clean steal is whistled.

In general, I teach my kids to not try to steal the ball from the ballhandler but to force a pass and let teammates cut into passing lanes for steals. Therefore, for us, "get the ball" is a good code for "foul," and we work on it in practice and remind at dead balls.

[Ignats75]

I don't have my rule book with me as I already passed my Varsity Promotion test Monday night...but i remember reading somewhere in the book that DIRECTLY addresses this situation. That the coach calling for a foul is an appropriate strategy as long as the players make an attempt at the ball. Therefore, not intentional unless player makes no attempt at the ball, or the foul is excessive.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

A few years ago, a FED POE contained some sentence to the effect that "If a coach tells the players to foul, it's an intentional foul."

This year (I think), FED rescinded that -- the coach's language does not determine the type of foul. The player's actions determine the type of foul.

Bob,

You are correct. This year the Fed said this in there Basketball Guide that's published by Referee.

[deecee]

you for clearing this up.

[PGCougar]

Good info on this thread. Here's a follow-up question. Be forewarned that a coach is asking (politely)...

What about off the ball fouls? Assume a dead ball with a throw-in by A and B1-5 trying to foul A2-5 quickly. Can B aggressively cover their players before the inbound is made, working hard to deny the inbound pass, and maybe fouling in the process if they are too agressive?

I'm not talking about anything blatant such as pulling a jersey, shoving, grabbing or holding. But what about denying hard by face guarding and bumping the cuts? The idea would be that maybe we can get a 5 second violation on A if lucky and and if not, a foul without any ticks off the clock.

Are we flirting with intentionals defending off the ball in this case?

[LarryS]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Good info on this thread. Here's a follow-up question. Be forewarned that a coach is asking (politely)...

What about off the ball fouls? Assume a dead ball with a throw-in by A and B1-5 trying to foul A2-5 quickly. Can B aggressively cover their players before the inbound is made, working hard to deny the inbound pass, and maybe fouling in the process if they are too agressive?

I'm not talking about anything blatant such as pulling a jersey, shoving, grabbing or holding. But what about denying hard by face guarding and bumping the cuts? The idea would be that maybe we can get a 5 second violation on A if lucky and and if not, a foul without any ticks off the clock.

Are we flirting with intentionals defending off the ball in this case?

For me, it would depend on what I saw. Say B2, while gaurding A2, is attempting to go through a screen and pushes A3. Unless the push is over the line (say A3 ends up on the other side of the floor or in the third row), all I would have is a push.

I would treat these fouls the same as fouls that occur during a live ball when I know a team is trying to foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Fyi, from POE 3B in this year's rule book: "Conversely, a coach who yells 'Foul' instructions to his or her team does not mean that the ensuing foul is automatically an intentional foul- even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock".

As Bob said, the old, defunct POE from the 2000-01 rule book read "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when coach/player says 'watch, we're going to foul'".

Changed completely.

[Texas Aggie]

In the Fed book this year, it says that fouling to stop the clock is "an acceptable coaching strategy." Which is sort of inconsistent with the idea of intentional foul -- and why I would like to see the term changed.

My idea for years has been 2 shots and the ball for any foul inside of 1 minute to play in the fourth quarter. I don't quite understand why the rules committee would say that committing a rules infraction is an "acceptable strategy."

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
In the Fed book this year, it says that fouling to stop the clock is "an acceptable coaching strategy." Which is sort of inconsistent with the idea of intentional foul -- and why I would like to see the term changed.

My idea for years has been 2 shots and the ball for any foul inside of 1 minute to play in the fourth quarter. I don't quite understand why the rules committee would say that committing a rules infraction is an "acceptable strategy."

It isn't inconsistent if the players have been coached properly. If the coach is yelling, "foul" we can assume they are behind. The defensive players should be aggressively going for steals. If they pick one clean, no foul. If they get all or part of their man, tweet. When someone says intentional foul I think of the dufus that shoves a player in the back, grabs a jersey, etc, on breakaways and away from the ball. These actons make it REAL clear his/her intentions were ONLY to foul.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
In the Fed book this year, it says that fouling to stop the clock is "an acceptable coaching strategy." Which is sort of inconsistent with the idea of intentional foul -- and why I would like to see the term changed.

Which is exactly why FIBA changed the name from "intentional foul" to "unsportsmanlike foul".

It is impossible for anyone else to accurately judge a person's intentions. It is only possible to judge their actions.

[Jesse James]

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
In the Fed book this year, it says that fouling to stop the clock is "an acceptable coaching strategy." Which is sort of inconsistent with the idea of intentional foul -- and why I would like to see the term changed.

My idea for years has been 2 shots and the ball for any foul inside of 1 minute to play in the fourth quarter. I don't quite understand why the rules committee would say that committing a rules infraction is an "acceptable strategy."

Thank God you're not on the rules committee. Having a rebounding foul in the waning seconds of a tie game carry the same resulting penalty as a technical foul seems an itsy bit harsh to me.