Coach Berating Players

[jeremy341a]

I disagree. If the Coach is being obscene or vulgar penalize. If he is merely riding his kids that is different. I am not going to hide in the corner because it would be easier or I don't want to be that guy.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I disagree. If the Coach is being obscene or vulgar penalize. If he is merely riding his kids that is different. I am not going to hide in the corner because it would be easier or I don't want to be that guy.

Who said he was being obscene or vulgar? I can be a d!ckhead without using a single inappropriate word. If he is dropping F-bombs for all to hear, then that is within our jurisdiction to address.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who said he was being obscene or vulgar? I can be a d!ckhead without using a single inappropriate word. If he is dropping F-bombs for all to hear, then that is within our jurisdiction to address.

I don't feel that it was described in a way that you can tell his exact actions. Therefore I put in two scenarios with if before each of them.

[BryanV21]

First we have to be a part of the fashion police, and now some want us to be a part of the moral police? No thanks.

If the NFHS, OHSAA, my assignors, or some other authority figure over me wants me to interject at some point... fine. But until then, I'm not there to teach manners to anyone.

Now, if the coach's actions/words start to affect the game, which I'm supposed to be in control of, then that's another thing. But there are people like ADs, parents, and school administrators whose job it is to control their coaches.

[Mark Padgett]

Many years ago I was working a MS game with a guy I hadn't worked with before. The coach of one team, who was a teacher at one of the schools, was verbally berating his players. In about the middle of Q2, he actually started to use some profanity (not terrible words, but they were profane). My partner went over to him at a TO and told him that he was on the local School Board and if he heard any more profanity coming from the coach, he would bring that up to the Board and ask for a "sanction" which would go on the teachers record.

The coach apologized and said he would change his attitude. I went over to my partner and asked him if he was really on the School Board. He kind of giggled and said, "No way." I told him it was a good move and I would use it if I needed to in the future. I never had to use it, though.

[Rob1968]

If we ever feel it's necessary to ask an administrator to address the actions of his/her coach, a good reference may be the "COACHES CODE OF CONDUCT" on p. 84 of the current NFHS Rules Book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

In my 46 years officiating I can honestly say that I have had this problem only twice and neither of them were at the H.S. or college level. They both happened the same Summer about 20 years ago in games that used NFHS Basketball Rules: The first during the YBOA Girls' Nationals 13U Pool Play game and the second during the AAU Boys' 13U Nationals Pool Play game, and in both games I had the same partner (Daryl H. Long, who was a long time poster here until he a stroke the past August) who was the R and I was the U in both games.


YBOA Game: The HC of the designated Home Team started verbally abusing his players from the time the Ball left Daryl's hand for the Jump Ball to start the game, and this abuse was non-stop for the enter 1st QT. It was our opinion then, and it is still our opinion now, that the HC's actions bordered on child abuse.

When the 1st QT was over the HC's verbal tirade continued in the huddle. As I checked the Scorebook during the break between quarters I very discretely told the mother who was keeping Home Team's book at the Table that in my home state of Ohio, what her HC was doing would be considered felony child abuse. The mother looked at me with a very stunned look on her face. I then turned away and walked to take my position at the appropriate place on the court for the 2nd QT AP Throw-in. Before Daryl administered the throw-in I noticed the mother talking with the HC while they both looked at me. For the next three quarters the HC hardly said a word to his players and they played much better basketball for the remainder of the game.


AAU Game: Mid-way through the 2nd QT the HC of the designated Home Team sent in H-6 into the game. H-6 was the son of one of the H-ACs. This particular AC was a police officer of a suburb of a major city in the South. The first time H-6 touched the Ball he made a pass that went straight out-of-bounds. H-HC immediately sent in H-7 to replace H-6. As H-6 went to the bench his father stepped onto the court, grabbed his son by his shoulders and flung him into a chair (the benches consisted of folding chairs).

Daryl and I stopped everything. We knew that we could not, by rule, charge him with a TF, but we could invoke NFHS R3-S3 (it is also the same rule and section in the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules Books) to remove him from the premises. We went to H-HC and told him we could not charge his AC with a TF but that we could require his AC had to leave the premises. The H-HC did not want to make his AC leave nor did his AC want to leave. At that point we got the Site Manager involved (the Principal for the school where the game was being played). We explained the situation to the Site Manager and he took the bull by the tale and faced the situation. The Site Manager told the AC that he either remove himself to the parking lot and not to come back into the building after the game was over or that he would call the police, have him arrested, and that he would have to explain to his police chief back home as to why he had been arrested. The AC left without saying another word.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

Short answer: No.

MTD's situations are different, IMO. I'd be very quick to deal with a case of physical assault. Verbal stuff is on the parents, IMO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who said he was being obscene or vulgar? I can be a d!ckhead without using a single inappropriate word. If he is dropping F-bombs for all to hear, then that is within our jurisdiction to address.

+1 My thoughts exactly.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Adam

Short answer: No.

MTD's situations are different, IMO. I'd be very quick to deal with a case of physical assault. Verbal stuff is on the parents, IMO.

Adam:

I do not think that verbal abuse should not be ignored in a JrHS or HS setting. Remember we are dealing with adolescents not adults.

Children are taught to not challenge adult authority figures. Child care advocates know that in certain situations will feel too intimidated to report the verbal abuse by their coach. Parents can also feel that intimidation. The coach-player dynamic can be a difficult one to navigate for children especially at the JrHS age. As officials we are neutral observers in the game and therefore in a better position to take action when verbal abuse is observed.

I would like to think that we as officials would be able to say that they know what is inappropriate conduct by a coach and will take the initiative to stop such conduct by a coach.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Adam:

I do not think that verbal abuse should not be ignored in a JrHS or HS setting. Remember we are dealing with adolescents not adults.

Children are taught to not challenge adult authority figures. Child care advocates know that in certain situations will feel too intimidated to report the verbal abuse by their coach. Parents can also feel that intimidation. The coach-player dynamic can be a difficult one to navigate for children especially at the JrHS age. As officials we are neutral observers in the game and therefore in a better position to take action when verbal abuse is observed.

I would like to think that we as officials would be able to say that they know what is inappropriate conduct by a coach and will take the initiative to stop such conduct by a coach.

MTD, Sr.

Then report it to the governing body, or let the parents deal with it (like you did). If it's egregious enough to get my attention and make me uncomfortable, I'll report it to whomever governs that program.

I'm not a lawyer nor a DHS professional, so I don't know what constitutes verbal abuse. I won't pretend to make any such declarations, either.

AAU-style (non-scholastic) ball, I'll be willing to bet that he'd start it with me as well. I'm not all that likely to give him the "I'm not one of your players" warning, I may just stick him as soon as he gets inappropriate with me.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by griblets

When working a summer tournament about 20 years, a coach was berating his 13-14 year old players terribly. It wasn't in an effort to help them. He was simply crushing their spirit. It was absolutely atrocious the way he belittled his players. I've always carried regret for not giving him an unsporting T for his behavior. I think the team's parents would have applauded.

Fast forward 20 years, and I had a similar situation last night with a BJV coach. It was obvious that the kids were not learning anything because the coach couldn't say anything positive. They were visibly upset with the treatment they were getting. It was sickening how he was treating them. He's going to drive many of those kids away from playing next year. I almost got an opportunity to rectify my regret from 20 years ago, but couldn't find the right situation to give him an unsporting T.

I wonder if anyone else has or would T a coach for the way that he treats and/or speaks to his team?

Obviously if a coach is using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures then that is something as BNR said that is within our jurisdiction to address.

But there is a saying about "doing too much" and that is exactly what you are doing as an official interjecting yourself in this situation simply b/c you subjectively think a coach is "berating/belittling", "crushing their spirit", or "couldn't say anything positive" to his kids.

As others have said these are issues for parents, school administrators, and the kids themselves to address. Absent loud profanity/inappropriate language or obscenities we have no business interjecting ourselves into the coach/player dynamic like this. And if you consider this to be "inappropriate language" I would suggest you are wrong as I believe that applies to language that is not profane but inappropriately references things like ethnicity/religion/sexual/threatening, etc.

I think its much more likely that parents would be upset with you for overstepping your bounds than then would be to percieve you as the type of protective hero you seem to think is needed here.

As others have also said, if it bothers you that much I would send an email to my assignor and suggest its something he should address with the AD of the school and/or a sanctioning body.

But issuing a T here is a particularly bad idea IMO.

[billyu2]

Since I wasn’t there to observe Griblets’ situation I had to respond according to how he described the two events. When he uses words such as “absolutely atrocious” and “sickening” to describe the coach’s behavior/treatment of his players I have to take his words for what they mean. Some on this forum have fallen in love with the word “egregious” as in, “Unless it (some minor rules infraction) was egregious, I won’t enforce it.” Okay, if we agree we should enforce a rule about a minor obscure action only when it has reached a level that is egregious, why is it that a major meltdown in a coach’s conduct/behavior that everyone in the gym can see, that one of our colleagues describes as absolutely atrocious or egregious, does not even warrant at least addressing the coach about it? And it’s not a matter of “don’t go looking for trouble” either. The “trouble” had already presented itself loud and clear for all to see, waiting for us to make a decision: Do I address it or let it pass? Regarding comments such as, “Moral police? No thanks.” and “Please don’t interject my personal moral and ethical beliefs” - well good grief! Those are the beliefs of the NFHS regarding their standards and expectations of “moral and ethical behavior, and upholding the honor and dignity of the profession” as worded in their Coaches and Officials Code of Conduct found in their rule book and addressed as a responsibility of coaches in Rule 10. It is their rule that charges officials the responsibility of jurisdiction to make decisions regarding the conduct/behavior of coaches, players and bench personnel among other things.
Their Codes for Coaches and Officials are also likely adopted and found in the basketball regulations of most of your state associations. They are in my state of Ohio.
When a situation like Griblets described occurs, do I want to be in that situation? No. Do I want to be “that guy” who feels he must at least address the coach or perhaps penalizes the coach? No. But I also don’t want to be “that guy” who crawls under the bleachers either. If a coach’s conduct/behavior can be described as “absolutely atrocious and sickening”, that behavior certainly does not meet the standards of the NFHS, your state association and most likely the school’s coaches handbook. So, when this conduct happens during a scholastic game under NFHS rules, there are only 2 or 3 people in the entire gym that, like it or not, have been given jurisdiction over that behavior at the time it occurs. Not the parents, not the school administration, not the state association and not the NFHS. The important question is not whether I want to be in that situation, or do I want to be “that guy.” I clearly do not. The question really is, if I have to make a tough decision regarding “egregious” conduct of a coach, under my game jurisdiction, do I have the guts to make it? Or do I say, “No thanks OHSAA and NFHS. I don’t want to police your moral and ethical standards for coaches.”
Griblets, I had a very similar situation occur in a state regional tournament game that would be of interest to you and perhaps some of my forum friends from Ohio. In the meantime, my advice to you is, if the behavior is as you described, address the coach asap and politely let him know that his conduct does not meet the standards of the state and national federation and, although not directed at the officials, that behavior still comes under the official’s jurisdiction and will not be tolerated. Or, if you want to have fun with it, use Mark Padgett’s story next time!
Thank you for posting your situation. I appreciate your honesty in expressing your feelings of regret for how you handled it and your request for help and support if it should happen again. I get the feeling that based on your experience, doing nothing the next time will likely not be an option. Based on my experience as well, I would agree.

[JRutledge]

First of all these are all subjective classifications. I have not heard a single word or statement that was over the line or specific to know where the line might have been crossed. That would help. But telling me that a coach raised their voice and said some words is not enough. Even when the NF says something is profane or inappropriate, they are not speaking the same things for everyone. They certainly have never gotten specific. People love to say "If they use the F-word" but there are places that situations where other words would be inappropriate and that is not always clear to who and where those things would be considered over the line.

Again, stay out of that stuff. If this is a school environment, then someone in the school should be paying attention. I am not going around trying to figure out if a coach is doing their job appropriately to their standards. And I do not want to work with people that feel that is their job to do so. Because most of the time all you are going to do is have a he said, he said situation anyway.

Peace

[VaTerp]

Can we please stop with the "hiding in a corner or under the bleachers" nonsense. Staying within our jurisdiction as officials is not equivalent to hiding behind anything.

It would be helpful if the OP gave more specifics but the lack of details and the fact that the OP said he was searching for an opportunity to T the coach but couldnt find one leads me to believe that it was nothing more than the coach talking to kids in a way the OP personally found objectionable but that does not fall under anything that we as officials could or should do anything about.

For one, kids are much more resilient than many adults think. As a HS football player I heard HS football coaches say some of the worst things imaginable to me and other players. Somehow we survived and became relatively well adjusted adults. I've also worked with youth sports in different capacities than just an official. Kids will speak up, either directly or to others, when they don't like the way they are being talked to. Often when they are being talked to in a rather mild manner btw. If this is a persistent problem then I'd bet any amount of money that multiple parents, school administrators, etc are aware of the issue. Particularly if its happening in games where there are plenty of eyeballs to observe whats going on. They will deal with it accordingly and how they see fit.

It is not within our duties to tell the coach how to treat his players, even when we may personally find it objectionable, unless some pretty clear things are violated. I think MTD's examples are good guidance. Note that a T was not a remedy he used or sought.

Again, as officials we have no business injecting ourselves into the coach/player dynamic like this. And the negative consequences of doing so far outweigh any positives you think you are going to achieve.