Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)

[SC Official]

For NCAAM folks...

Is this a primary or secondary defender? I know the rule says that in an outnumbering fastbreak that all defenders are "initially" secondary; but when do primary defenders begin to exist, so to speak, on a fastbreak?

Not sure if that has anything to do with this play, but just curious.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For NCAAM folks...

Is this a primary or secondary defender? I know the rule says that in an outnumbering fastbreak that all defenders are "initially" secondary; but when do primary defenders begin to exist, so to speak, on a fastbreak?

Not sure if that has anything to do with this play, but just curious.

You are a primary defender once you establish LGP. Which on an outnumbered fastbreak cannot be done in the RA. This defender for all intensive purposes is a primary defender.

However even if he were secondary the RA restriction does not apply if the defender maintains verticality and jumps to make a play to defend the shot. They MUST be airborne and vertical for the RA restriction to not apply to them.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are a primary defender once you establish LGP. Which on an outnumbered fastbreak cannot be done in the RA. This defender for all intensive purposes is a primary defender.

However even if he were secondary the RA restriction does not apply if the defender maintains verticality and jumps to make a play to defend the shot. They MUST be airborne and vertical for the RA restriction to not apply to them.

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

I'd have to look again but i thought it looked like a 2 on 2 break. There are players behind but 2 on 2 essentially to me. Not outnumbering fast break. So the player who fouled, is guarding the player with the ball initially. If he had set up in the RA and taken a charge regular block charge rules apply. RA isn't factor. he is a primary defender.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'd have to look again but i thought it looked like a 2 on 2 break. There are players behind but 2 on 2 essentially to me. Not outnumbering fast break. So the player who fouled, is guarding the player with the ball initially. If he had set up in the RA and taken a charge regular block charge rules apply. RA isn't factor. he is a primary defender.

There are only two defenders back, they are outnumbers. If all the other players just watched, maybe you have a point there. But not being outnumbered from my understanding is when all 5 defenders are back. Then each defender has a man potentially. This still fits the rule. But again the rule only applies when a player is on the floor. When the player jumps up in the air, they are treated like any other place on the floor.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are only two defenders back, they are outnumbers. If all the other players just watched, maybe you have a point there. But not being outnumbered from my understanding is when all 5 defenders are back. Then each defender has a man potentially. This still fits the rule. But again the rule only applies when a player is on the floor. When the player jumps up in the air, they are treated like any other place on the floor.

Peace

As a player, coach and referee that is not an outnumbered fast break. 2 defensive players back, 2 offensive players at point of attack. Behind them is an offensive and defensive player. I would tell my point guard to look as he is going up floor and if he can slow down and let players on each side fill the wings we may be able to turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2.

Here we have 2 defensive players back and 2 offensive players heading to the rim. That's a fast break. The other players are trailing close to each other. If there was an offensive player trailing the play and no defense around you could say it is a 3 on 2. That's not the case here.
You can have an "even" fast break as opposed to an "outnumbered" one without having all 5 players back. Look at the play and how many offense and defense are there on the break.

I guess i should add that i dont get the interps from arbiter etc. maybe that is what they have said.
I do agree that all this isnt a factor in this play because defender is not trying to take charge etc. he can jump to block shot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

As a player, coach and referee that is not an outnumbered fast break. 2 defensive players back, 2 offensive players at point of attack. Behind them is an offensive and defensive player. I would tell my point guard to look as he is going up floor and if he can slow down and let players on each side fill the wings we may be able to turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2.

Here we have 2 defensive players back and 2 offensive players heading to the rim. That's a fast break. The other players are trailing close to each other. If there was an offensive player trailing the play and no defense around you could say it is a 3 on 2. That's not the case here.
You can have an "even" fast break as opposed to an "outnumbered" one without having all 5 players back. Look at the play and how many offense and defense are there on the break.

I do agree that all this isnt a factor in this play because defender is not trying to take charge etc. he can jump to block shot.

I am not talking as a player or coach. That is the interpretation from the rules committee or the Supervisor of Officials. This has been addressed in the NCAA video the last couple of years.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

If a player jumps and maintains verticality then the RA restriction does not apply and a player control foul can be called.

Originally Posted by BigCat

In outnumbering fast break situations, say a 2 on 1 or even a 3 on 2, all defenders are considered secondary. They cannot try to take charge etc in the RA. When the fast break is over, say they pull the ball out, or shoot it other rules kick back in. After a rebound there are NO secondary defenders IF the rebounder makes an immediate move the the basket. Everybody is primary so the RA restriction isn't relevant.

This is incorrect as all players are initially secondary, they can become primary and can take a charge anywhere. They cannot become primary within the RA. There is a case play that illustrates this, I just don't have my book on me. The example is 3 on 2 break where the ball handler takes the ball all the way and one of the 2 defenders committing to the ball handler above the 3 point arc (although where doesn't matter as long as its not RA). That defender is the primary and even if the contact initiates within the RA as long as LGP was maintained its a PC foul.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

If a player jumps and maintains verticality then the RA restriction does not apply and a player control foul can be called.

Yes, but my question was addressing this player in the video. He's a primary defender who can back into the RA and take a charge, right?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Yes, but my question was addressing this player in the video. He's a primary defender who can back into the RA and take a charge, right?

Yes he can. The RA only applies to secondary defenders in a block charge situation on a play to score. If a guy is just dribbling around RA doesn't apply.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is incorrect as all players are initially secondary, they can become primary and can take a charge anywhere. They cannot become primary within the RA. There is a case play that illustrates this, I just don't have my book on me. The example is 3 on 2 break where the ball handler takes the ball all the way and one of the 2 defenders committing to the ball handler above the 3 point arc (although where doesn't matter as long as its not RA). That defender is the primary and even if the contact initiates within the RA as long as LGP was maintained its a PC foul.

Correct. I also think there was a clarification sent out specifically addressing this earlier in the season.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For NCAAM folks...

Is this a primary or secondary defender? I know the rule says that in an outnumbering fastbreak that all defenders are "initially" secondary; but when do primary defenders begin to exist, so to speak, on a fastbreak?

Not sure if that has anything to do with this play, but just curious.

Some of this you know but i think it helps to see it all...

Secondary defenders are players who come to help after another defender, primary, is beaten. A player coming to double the low post is also considered a secondary defender.

Secondary defenders cannot set up in the RA to attempt TO TAKE a charge or a "push" foul. They can jump to try to block a shot or pass. If they are in the RA and try to take a charge etc it is an automatic block.

In outnumbering fast break situations, say a 2 on 1 or even a 3 on 2, all defenders are considered secondary. They cannot try to take charge etc in the RA. When the fast break is over, say they pull the ball out, or shoot it other rules kick back in. After a rebound there are NO secondary defenders IF the rebounder makes an immediate move the the basket. Everybody is primary so the RA restriction isn't relevant.

If the ball is pulled out we go back to regular rules. a primary defender is guarding a player and a secondary player is one who comes to help after primary beaten. I havnt seen interps on arbiter etc but this is how i interp it.

If the fast break is 2 on 2 then the defender guarding the ball is primary. if offense comes at him and he sets up in RA and takes charge he is ok. He is primary. it was not an outnumbering break. If defender beats him and the remaining defender slides over, he is a secondary defender and RA rules apply.