End of game situation

[BigCat]

I'm with Rich that it isnt cut and dried..
I understand Decees position. The horn that blew wasnt just a horn that blows by mistake while time is running and left on the clock. It is the end of game or quarter horn. Does that mean the ball becomes dead at that moment (because no try in flight etc) and have to go to arrow? Or, because we know that horn shouldnt have blown and we know there is a half second left can we let play continue for what we say is a half second? Or in the OP give the ball to B for a throw in out of bounds because it would have been B ball there?

Say there is two seconds left on the clock in a tie game and A has the ball under their basket. They run a great play and A2 comes for a wide open layup. He catches the ball and the game ending horn goes off. CLEARLY clock was started early. Because it was the game ending horn does the ball become dead and A has to run another inbounds play with 2 put back on the clock? Or because we know there was 2 seconds can we let the play continue for the two seconds and then declare game over? Ignore that horn like we can other horns?

We know if the clock doesnt start when it should and we have a count we can take time off the clock. We also know if the timer stops the clock after a made basket we can take time off the clock based on our inbounds count etc. This is my nightmare scenario and why when it is a potential issue i always talk to the timer.....I tend to agree with Deecee and in my example A would have to take the ball out again if we went by rule. It is not cut and dry.....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's not cut-and-dried to me.

I'm likely going to give B the ball at the OOB spot and reset the clock. It's the outcome that would've happened and sometimes you have to officiate with the rule book, not to it.

Agreed. It's one of those plays where if it's on a test you put down one answer and if it's a real game you *might* do something different.

I have had a similar game where the FT was missed and all 10 (well, probably 5 or so) players were going for the ball when the horn went off -- we had to go to the arrow. The HT coach was NOT happy with his timer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rlarry

There is team control, A1'S shot went out of bounds


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No, there's not team control. That ended as soon as A1 released the FT.
The horn does not cause the ball to become dead. Let it play out and don't blow the whistle until it hits, now you resume with B ball due to the OOB violation on A.

I get that this is slightly different because the horn signaled the end of the quarter. That horn normally causes the ball to become dead.

I'm still giving the ball to B unless the horn going off interrupted A's efforts to get the ball. If A wasn't trying (no reason they would be here), do what should have happened.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, there's not team control. That ended as soon as A1 released the FT.
The horn does not cause the ball to become dead. Let it play out and don't blow the whistle until it hits, now you resume with B ball due to the OOB violation on A.

I get that this is slightly different because the horn signaled the end of the quarter. That horn normally causes the ball to become dead.

I'm still giving the ball to B unless the horn going off interrupted A's efforts to get the ball. If A wasn't trying (no reason they would be here), do what should have happened.

Look at my play above and read entire post. Post 16. What do you do? Thx forgot to say PLEASE

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Say there is two seconds left on the clock in a tie game and A has the ball under their basket. They run a great play and A2 comes for a wide open layup. He catches the ball and the game ending horn goes off. CLEARLY clock was started early. Because it was the game ending horn does the ball become dead and A has to run another inbounds play with 2 put back on the clock? Or because we know there was 2 seconds can we let the play continue for the two seconds and then declare game over? Ignore that horn like we can other horns?

Give the ball back to A at the spot nearest the ball when the horn went off (in this play, where A2 had the ball; not necessarily the spot of the original throw-in) with whatever time is left between 2 seconds and however much time elapsed after A2 had the ball and the horn.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Give the ball back to A at the spot nearest the ball when the horn went off (in this play, where A2 had the ball; not necessarily the spot of the original throw-in) with whatever time is left between 2 seconds and however much time elapsed after A2 had the ball and the horn.

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

This conversation is changing how I officiate the end of close games, to make sure these things don't happen. Because I see huge messes.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

Count. You should at least be able to get .5 seconds (nearly) correct. And, there's some case play to the effect that "at least some time has to come off -- perhaps .3 seconds" when the ball is caught and the whstle / horn blows simultaneously.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

This conversation is changing how I officiate the end of close games, to make sure these things don't happen. Because I see huge messes.

I try (and I preface this with the word TRY) to have an internal count in instances with less than a minute on the clock and we have an inbounds play or stoppage. It goes off without a hitch 100% of the time I remember to do this. Not so successful when I forget.

My rule of thumb is if the team with the ball appears to have an imminent attempt to score I will not blow the game dead. If say there is 10 seconds on the clock and then inbounds and take a couple dribbles and I notice the clock hasn't started I blow it dead right away.

My hope is I get it quick enough where we don't have to worry about taking time off the clock. This doesn't always happen and usually it would end up being in the 1-3 second time to be removed. That's why it's so important for the off ball official in 2-man to check the clock in these instances because the on ball guy usually will have action right in front of him and it makes it difficult to peel your eyes away.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Look at my play above and read entire post. Post 16. What do you do? Thx forgot to say PLEASE

I'm with bob.

[BryanV21]

It's unlikely Team A would be able to score again in the time allotted, and would thus lose the game, leaving the HC angry and with questions about the end.

If that HC asks about it, am I just to say "I'm sorry coach, but we have to go by the rules, and the rules say this is how to handle that situation. I understand your anger, but there's nothing I can do."?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Count. You should at least be able to get .5 seconds (nearly) correct. And, there's some case play to the effect that "at least some time has to come off -- perhaps .3 seconds" when the ball is caught and the whstle / horn blows simultaneously.

I've heard people make the comment that .3 must come off but ive never seen it in a rule or case play. maybe ive missed it. I agree that we should be able to get .5 seconds nearly correct. I guess in this situation, I'm more apt to say i don't have definite knowledge of the time that came off when the ball was caught and put 2 back up. Especially if the timer is team Bs…

The only rule i know that deals with it is that we have to have definite knowledge. i would be interested in seeing the ".3 must always come off" play or interp if anyone knows it etc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I've heard people make the comment that .3 must come off but ive never seen it in a rule or case play. maybe ive missed it. I agree that we should be able to get .5 seconds nearly correct. I guess in this situation, I'm more apt to say i don't have definite knowledge of the time that came off when the ball was caught and put 2 back up. Especially if the timer is team Bs…

The only rule i know that deals with it is that we have to have definite knowledge. i would be interested in seeing the ".3 must always come off" play or interp if anyone knows it etc.

I don't think that case or interp exists at the NFHS level.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I've heard people make the comment that .3 must come off but ive never seen it in a rule or case play.

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think that case or interp exists at the NFHS level.

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[SNIPERBBB]

I thinks its implied that any controlled move with the ball, catch n shoot/pass/dribble takes .3 seconds going off the .3 or less no try can be attempted rule.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

i think i have seen this before but i don't recall it in the current case book. What year and and rule site of the play if you have it? thx