Intentional Foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't like the blanket statement that what is "intentional" during a live-ball is the same criteria as what is "intentional" during a dead ball, especially in some the games I have to officiate.

I do think it is safe to say (and probably what you're thinking) that anything that is intentional during a live ball would also be at least intentional during a dead ball. However, some things that would be less than intentional during a live ball might rise to that level if during a dead ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I do think it is safe to say (and probably what you're thinking) that anything that is intentional during a live ball would also be at least intentional during a dead ball. However, some things that would be less than intentional during a dead ball might rise to that level if during a dead ball.

You are correct.

[Shooter14]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Sura ya can. A1 scores and shoves B1 out of his way as he turns to go up the floor. Intentional Technical Foul. Ball is dead.

And if this happens, how would you penalize? Technical procedure, or Intentional procedure? I was trying to keep it simple. Is an Intentional Technical, not still a TECHNICAL?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

And if this happens, how would you penalize? Technical procedure, or Intentional procedure? I was trying to keep it simple. Is an Intentional Technical, not still a TECHNICAL?

You will keep it simple once you recognize that there's no such thing as an Intentional Procedure or Intentional (alone) foul.

All fouls are either Personal or Technical. Within those categories, they can have modifiers, such as Common, Intentional, Flagrant, Player Control, Team Control, etc. I think (off the top of my head) that all personal fouls get a modifier; a "plain" technical does not.

So, your question above is obvious -- it was and Intentional Technical foul and should be penalized as such (it was not an Intentional Personal) foul.

[Shooter14]

Do you think for a first year official that that's a lot of information? I would tell the first year official in this case; Contact occurred during dead ball=It's either technical, or it's nothing. Why get into all the other degrees? I personally wouldn't. I don't think that makes me wrong, and if you want to explain all the different types, you are not wrong either.

But in the play where there's a push during a dead ball, If you decide it can't be ignored, it's going to be a technical (not stating the type). Two free throws for any member on the floor of the offended team. Ball out at division line, opposite the table.

[Shooter14]

And I know I'm not using correct verbage, but in my head I use "intentional procedure" and "technical procedure".

"Intentional procedure"-The player fouled shoots, ball out of bounds at the point of interruption.

"Technical procedure"-Two free throws for any member, ball out at division line.

In his original post;Technical foul. Follow "Technical procedure"

Would I be wrong in my game to call a technical on player who shoved, award 2 free throws to any member on the floor, and put the ball in at division line?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You will keep it simple once you recognize that there's no such thing as an Intentional Procedure or Intentional (alone) foul.

All fouls are either Personal or Technical. Within those categories, they can have modifiers, such as Common, Intentional, Flagrant, Player Control, Team Control, etc. I think (off the top of my head) that all personal fouls get a modifier; a "plain" technical does not.

So, your question above is obvious -- it was and Intentional Technical foul and should be penalized as such (it was not an Intentional Personal) foul.

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Do you think for a first year official that that's a lot of information? I would tell the first year official in this case; Contact occurred during dead ball=It's either technical, or it's nothing. Why get into all the other degrees? I personally wouldn't. I don't think that makes me wrong, and if you want to explain all the different types, you are not wrong either.

But in the play where there's a push during a dead ball, If you decide it can't be ignored, it's going to be a technical (not stating the type). Two free throws for any member on the floor of the offended team. Ball out at division line, opposite the table.

Shooter14:

No, I do not think that is a lot of information for a first year official. I taught the OhioHSAA mandatory new officials' course for ten years and drilled into the new officials that Rule 4 is the most important rule in the book.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Do you think for a first year official that that's a lot of information? I would tell the first year official in this case; Contact occurred during dead ball=It's either technical, or it's nothing. Why get into all the other degrees? I personally wouldn't. I don't think that makes me wrong, and if you want to explain all the different types, you are not wrong either.

You need to get into the "degrees" because it might be flagrant. There are at least three choices -- nothing (in terms of a penalty), Intentional Technical and Flagrant Technical.

Originally Posted by Shooter14

And I know I'm not using correct verbage, but in my head I use "intentional procedure" and "technical procedure".

"Intentional procedure"-The player fouled shoots, ball out of bounds at the point of interruption.

"Technical procedure"-Two free throws for any member, ball out at division line.

You can use what ever verbiage you want, but just calling it "intentional" and not "intentional personal" is what leads to all the confusion.

[Shooter14]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Would I be wrong in my game to call a technical on player who shoved, award 2 free throws to any member on the floor, and put the ball in at division line?

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Shooter14:

No, I do not think that is a lot of information for a first year official. I taught the OhioHSAA mandatory new officials' course for ten years and drilled into the new officials that Rule 4 is the most important rule in the book.

MTD, Sr.

Am I wrong in the above situation?

[Shooter14]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You need to get into the "degrees" because it might be flagrant. There are at least three choices -- nothing (in terms of a penalty), Intentional Technical and Flagrant Technical.



You can use what ever verbiage you want, but just calling it "intentional" and not "intentional personal" is what leads to all the confusion.

I, myself know the degrees to which personal and technical fouls can be. I just thought it was easier to remember the procedures for the way I stated it for a new official.

Live ball contact=INTENTIONAL, Live ball anything else or dead ball anything=TECHNICAL. If either one are bad enough where you have to toss someone, add a FLAGRANT to the beginning. If not, then don't. Then follow the correct ways to penalize intentionals (personal or flagrant) and technicals .(personal, flagrant, administrative, bench, substitute, whatever)

You guys have been around longer and probably know more than me so I won't keep at it but this just seems so simple to me.

And MTD I'm not doubting you know the most important things to drill. But if I were training first year guys I would want them to know the most misunderstood basketball rules, how to handle coaches, and proper mechanics. Not just the signals, but where to be on the floor and when. But we come from different areas so maybe guys start with more of that knowledge where you are from, who knows.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Then follow the correct ways to penalize intentionals (personal or flagrant) and technicals .(personal, flagrant, administrative, bench, substitute, whatever)

There's no such thing as an intentional flagrant foul or a technical personal foul

[Shooter14]

Don't have my book on me. Flagrant personal, I'm not even sure? And that's why I said "whatever" in the list of technicals I was giving because I don't have a book to reference. Sorry I'm not defining the types of personal fouls and tecnhicals correctly. Obviously I need to refresh myself with the terms by looking in the book. But I assure you I know the procedures for when any type of foul happens on the floor.

Please tell me if I'm wrong on this original post; Player shoved during DEAD BALL. Technical foul, two shots by any team member on the floor. Ball out at division line. It was during a dead ball, so it's a technical, it's that simple to me.

You can continue to say I'm wrong, and that's fine. Maybe I am. Will someone please explain a case where I could go wrong in a game with the following logic:

Intentional: Live Ball Contact
Technical: Live Ball unsporting, dead ball anything.

Is there a case where I go by those basics that I would mess up during a game? Meaning I administer the penalties wrong. I would NEVER call live ball contact a technical, and I would NEVER call dead ball contact Intentional (personal or whatever).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Am I wrong in the above situation?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Shooter14

...

But in the play where there's a push during a dead ball, If you decide it can't be ignored, it's going to be a technical (not stating the type). Two free throws for any member on the floor of the offended team. Ball out at division line, opposite the table.

A sub can be brought in to shoot the free throws.

[Shooter14]

Thanks for your response. I would have messed up if the coach tried to sub.

[BigCat]

I think it's best to learn and use the proper terms. In an earlier post you said your "intentional procedure" was 2 shots and ball at point of interruption. Factually, it is the same thing but you are using terminology that applies in other situations. POI. Intentional foul is 2 shots and ball out at spot nearest the foul.

The rules are a puzzle. Their connected and intertwined etc. Personally, I think using other terms has potential to lead to confusion.