Intentional Foul?

[ChuckS]

Still less than a year into this, still a lot to learn! Yesterday, fall league, 6th grade boys, I call a held ball between A1 and B1, immediately after the whistle, A2 pushes B2. Nothing crazy, just a routine push that would be an easy common foul call during a live ball. B2 was displaced, but did not fall down. I recall in my classes the instructor saying that most dead-ball contact is incidental.

But I am finding the rules silent on this. 4-19-5(c) says a technical foul can be intentional or flagrant contact during a dead ball. It didn’t rise to the level of flagrant.

It is rule 4-19-3 which I am struggling with. The contact didn’t fall under sub-sections a through e. So I am left with “Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to….”

What are some examples of “not limited to….”?

Thanks very much!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Still less than a year into this, still a lot to learn! Yesterday, fall league, 6th grade boys, I call a held ball between A1 and B1, immediately after the whistle, A2 pushes B2. Nothing crazy, just a routine push that would be an easy common foul call during a live ball. B2 was displaced, but did not fall down. I recall in my classes the instructor saying that most dead-ball contact is incidental.

But I am finding the rules silent on this. 4-19-5(c) says a technical foul can be intentional or flagrant contact during a dead ball. It didn’t rise to the level of flagrant.

It is rule 4-19-3 which I am struggling with. The contact didn’t fall under sub-sections a through e. So I am left with “Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to….”

What are some examples of “not limited to….”?

Thanks very much!

The Ball became Dead when the Held Ball occurred. A2's illegal contact with B2 occurred while the Ball was Dead, therefore it is a Technical Foul. It is also my opinion based upon your description that A2's contact would have been an Intentional Personal Foul had the Ball been Live.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Still less than a year into this, still a lot to learn! Yesterday, fall league, 6th grade boys, I call a held ball between A1 and B1, immediately after the whistle, A2 pushes B2. Nothing crazy, just a routine push that would be an easy common foul call during a live ball. B2 was displaced, but did not fall down. I recall in my classes the instructor saying that most dead-ball contact is incidental.

But I am finding the rules silent on this. 4-19-5(c) says a technical foul can be intentional or flagrant contact during a dead ball. It didn’t rise to the level of flagrant.

It is rule 4-19-3 which I am struggling with. The contact didn’t fall under sub-sections a through e. So I am left with “Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to….”

What are some examples of “not limited to….”?

Thanks very much!

It's hard to believe you don't have this all down pat after "less than a year"

If you judged that the contact would have been a common foul during a live ball (as stated in your play), then it's "nothing" during a dead ball. (That's not the same as saying you shouldn't address it.)

[Shooter14]

Live Ball Contact=Intentional (Can not have a LIVE BALL CONTACT technical)
Dead Ball Contact/Dead Ball Anything=Technical (Can not have a DEAD BALL CONTACT intentional)

Remember the ball is live during a throw-in.

The only live ball technicals you can have are for unsporting acts or delays. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But this is an easy way for me to remember.

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Dead Ball Contact/Dead Ball Anything=Technical (Can not have a DEAD BALL CONTACT intentional)

Sura ya can. A1 scores and shoves B1 out of his way as he turns to go up the floor. Intentional Technical Foul. Ball is dead.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by shooter14

live ball contact=intentional (can not have a live ball contact technical)
dead ball contact/dead ball anything=technical (can not have a dead ball contact intentional personal foul)

remember the ball is live during a throw-in.

The only live ball technicals you can have are for unsporting acts or delays. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. But this is an easy way for me to remember.

fify

[crosscountry55]

In an effort not to paralyze the OP with details....

You're right that you have two options. They are A) nothing due to incidental, or B) intentional technical (most officials just call it a "technical" but the distinction is important because you're learning and taking exams this time of year).

Based on your description, what you choose really depends on what you meant by "pushes."

Is it possible that A2 was simply slow to react to the whistle and was in the process of committing a normal common foul that was associated with making a play vice acting out in frustration? If so, I'd rule this incidental, but I'd take a few quick steps toward A2 and B2 to make my presence known in an effort to keep B2 from retaliating in case he felt "slighted." Great opportunity for good dead ball officiating here without necessarily imposing any penalties.

However, if A2 clearly should have known to stop on the whistle....but didn't, and/or you detect an unsporting or frustrated vibe from A2's push, then I'd whistle the "T" here. Because it's a T, any eligible member of Team B may shoot the free throws and we resume play with a throw-in to Team B at the division line opposite the table. Oh, and now that you have a foul before the AP throw-in is complete, the arrow is suspended until the next AP situation; whoever had it to begin with keeps it....it's like the held ball never happened.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

It is rule 4-19-3 which I am struggling with. The contact didn’t fall under sub-sections a through e. So I am left with “Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to….”

What are some examples of “not limited to….”?

The answers so far have been helpful in ways very pertinent to the situation you describe. In answer to your actual question, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that wouldn't fall into one of those covered in the rule.

I think the key is that it is a contact foul that has some component of being unsporting. Even though the word "sportsmanship" and its derivatives are not used in that rule, I think it's implied from the five examples.

[ChuckS]

Thanks very much for all of the replies! I didn't call anything, but it seems that I should have. Next time. . . .

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Still less than a year into this, still a lot to learn! Yesterday, fall league, 6th grade boys, I call a held ball between A1 and B1, immediately after the whistle, A2 pushes B2. Nothing crazy, just a routine push that would be an easy common foul call during a live ball. B2 was displaced, but did not fall down. I recall in my classes the instructor saying that most dead-ball contact is incidental.

But I am finding the rules silent on this. 4-19-5(c) says a technical foul can be intentional or flagrant contact during a dead ball. It didn’t rise to the level of flagrant.

It is rule 4-19-3 which I am struggling with. The contact didn’t fall under sub-sections a through e. So I am left with “Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to….”

What are some examples of “not limited to….”?

Thanks very much!

If you felt the contact was intentional or unsporting, then you can go with a Technical Foul in this situation.

And what may be deemed intentional during a dead-ball is not necessarily the same as what is deemed as intentional during a live-ball.

Example: During a live-ball, if B1 swipes at the ball and hits A1 on the arm, that's just a common foul. However, if the ball dead (like after a held ball is whistled) and B1 swipes at the ball and hits A1's arm, that's an intentional technical foul.

[Adam]

I personally subscribe to Bob's criteria. If it's something that would trigger me to call an intentional foul during live ball, I'll call the T. If it's something that would have been a common foul during live play, I'll probably have a chat about what the whistle means.

Added note: BNR, in your play, I've probably got nothing. It depends on just how long after the whistle the swipe happened. The longer the ball has been dead, the lower my threshold for calling a foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

I personally subscribe to Bob's criteria. If it's something that would trigger me to call an intentional foul during live ball, I'll call the T. If it's something that would have been a common foul during live play, I'll probably have a chat about what the whistle means.

Added note: BNR, in your play, I've probably got nothing. It depends on just how long after the whistle the swipe happened. The longer the ball has been dead, the lower my threshold for calling a foul.

And I purposely did not put any time lapse references in my situation. It is not uncommon at all for an opponent to swipe at the ball well after the play is whistled dead. My decision will have less to do with elapsed seconds, and more to do with the temperature of the rivalry or game. I don't like the blanket statement that what is "intentional" during a live-ball is the same criteria as what is "intentional" during a dead ball, especially in some the games I have to officiate.

[Multiple Sports]

BNR - You are so much wiser after this past weekend !!!!! You were obviously paying attention !!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And I purposely did not put any time lapse references in my situation. It is not uncommon at all for an opponent to swipe at the ball well after the play is whistled dead. My decision will have less to do with elapsed seconds, and more to do with the temperature of the rivalry or game. I don't like the blanket statement that what is "intentional" during a live-ball is the same criteria as what is "intentional" during a dead ball, especially in some the games I have to officiate.

I agree, blanket statements are bad.

I think the standard works in most situations, but consideration must be made for game temperature.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you felt the contact was intentional or unsporting, then you can go with a Technical Foul in this situation.

And what may be deemed intentional during a dead-ball is not necessarily the same as what is deemed as intentional during a live-ball.

Example: During a live-ball, if B1 swipes at the ball and hits A1 on the arm, that's just a common foul. However, if the ball dead (like after a held ball is whistled) and B1 swipes at the ball and hits A1's arm, that's an intentional technical foul.

In an effort to not confuse those officials who are learning this material, please refrain from using "unsporting" when considering contact situations since the NFHS defines an unsporting technical foul as a non-contact foul. When instructing I say makes "deliberate" contact with an opponent during a dead ball. Sometimes the severity of the contact is important and sometimes it is not. We are allowed to judge the attitude and intent of the player. If he is simply being obnoxious, then he gets whacked and the contact falls under the category of an intentional technical foul.