Slight Body Contact on drive to basket

[BigCat]

I would tell everyone that the whistle needs to be blown more. If a defender is hugging a player to the basket call a foul and make them give some space. I have always said "if I'm going down..I'm going down blowing my whistle."

When you do high level high school or college ball there's an art to what you call or don't call. At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I would tell everyone that the whistle needs to be blown more. If a defender is hugging a player to the basket call a foul and make them give some space. I have always said "if I'm going down..I'm going down blowing my whistle."

When you do high level high school or college ball there's an art to what you call or don't call. At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

Sorry, wouldn't be true to my screen name if I didn't say I disagree, at least somewhat. Do not fabricate a foul with your whistle when there is not one. Don't guess, be as sure as you can, before penalizing a kid with a phantom foul call. But this comes, as others have said, with a lot of practice. Try seeing the defender in this play from the OP, instead of focusing only on the ball handler as he drives to the bucket. This will help you determine LGP, then be sure HE is responsible for the contact, that you haven't just seen something inadvertent, possibly initiated by the offensive player. Good luck! I hope you do well and have a long career. Visit this forum often...lots of good knowledge and debate, much of which I'm sure will follow this post

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sorry, wouldn't be true to my screen name if I didn't say I disagree, at least somewhat. Do not fabricate a foul with your whistle when there is not one. Don't guess, be as sure as you can, before penalizing a kid with a phantom foul call. But this comes, as others have said, with a lot of practice. Try seeing the defender in this play from the OP, instead of focusing only on the ball handler as he drives to the bucket. This will help you determine LGP, then be sure HE is responsible for the contact, that you haven't just seen something inadvertent, possibly initiated by the offensive player. Good luck! I hope you do well and have a long career. Visit this forum often...lots of good knowledge and debate, much of which I'm sure will follow this post

Your screen name gave us the New York Knicks in the 90,s. A football game/fist fight. I'm not saying make a phantom call but if a player is being ridden to the basket..call a foul. The NCAA has realized that advantage/disadvantage is/was a disaster. That is why we have automatics now. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone has to make their own choices. This is my position.

And if I had to choose between my position and letemplay's...id choose mine. Imagine that. I am a rocket scientist btw....

[crosscountry55]

I agree that advantage/disadvantage has been superseded by the freedom of movement initiative (which FINALLY made some headway this past season). And I would also agree that there are the supposed automatic fouls in Rule 10-6 that help take some of the guesswork out of officiating.

The problem is that none of the automatics apply to the situation described in the OP. This is about LGP and space entitlements, pure and simple.

My advice for this situation is arguably cliché, but valid nonetheless: see the play start, develop and finish....and have a patient whistle.

For a new official this is MUCH easier said then done, but as you see (many) more plays it will become easier. The level you're officiating also makes a difference; contact as you describe may have a big impact on the offensive player in a 5th grade game but hardly any impact in a varsity game.

And this is why officiating is as much art as science.

[bas2456]

I think the acronym that someone alluded to above is RSBQ (Rhythm, Speed, Balance, and Quickness). If the contact affects any one of the four elements to the point where the offensive player is disadvantaged, call the foul.

I think it also depends on the level of ball you're officiating. Younger players, especially on the girls side, will be affected more by a little contact. As players get older and stronger, the little bumps won't affect them and they're able to play through it.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Your screen name gave us the New York Knicks in the 90,s. A football game/fist fight. I'm not saying make a phantom call but if a player is being ridden to the basket..call a foul. The NCAA has realized that advantage/disadvantage is/was a disaster. That is why we have automatics now. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone has to make their own choices. This is my position.

And if I had to choose between my position and letemplay's...id choose mine. Imagine that. I am a rocket scientist btw....

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by letemplay

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

I have to disagree. Although the NBA and a high school are completely different it is not based on long benches, 6 fouls... Etc... I would suggest the NBA game, when it comes to these plays, is easier to officiate than a high school game. The players are more skilled and more likely to not have contact affect the drive. In a high school game with less skilled players it is more difficult to determine what really affects a shot and not so we make more calls.

Now back the the original post

1) referee the defense.you know what the offense is trying to do and where they are going.
2) assume the play is legal until the defender proves to you they violated the rule. If you can't articulate what the player did wrong, then they did not do it.

Goes back to understanding LGP. Never take away good defense. Never take away proper defense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

I am going to have to disagree with this too as every time I have talked to an NBA Official or someone in their system, they do not do anything different than we do. And the NBA IMO calls more fouls than we do and are more consistent.

Peace

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am going to have to disagree with this too as every time I have talked to an NBA Official or someone in their system, they do not do anything different than we do. And the NBA IMO calls more fouls than we do and are more consistent.

Peace

What I'm saying is they do blow whistle more in NBA it seems (regardless of their athletic ability to play through) and that's a good thing. I think at a lower level, let's say high school, that too many times players are saddled with phantom calls, and have to go to the bench early. This can have a profound effect on a hs team, unlike the NBA, that can withstand some guesses. College ball's been over for the year for a bit, so lately all I've watched is NBA, and I see just as many missed foul calls (on replay of course) as we saw in college season. I suppose I was just wanting to take an opposite approach to some who suggested to a young official, coming on this forum looking for advice, to basically blow the whistle at anything...I'd rather they didn't..

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

All incidental.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.
Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

No, this is not incidental. They even changed the rule to reflect this.

In my experience, more will get stuck for calling too much than for calling too little. That's just my experience. There are obviously other reasons officials don't progress, and some certainly are too whistle-shy.

jtheump's stages need revised, IMO. I've said for years that the stages I've seen are:

1. Afraid to blow the whistle. This normally lasts only a few games, sometimes a bit longer.

2. Calling everything. Not just the handchecks, but every single contact they see regardless of whether it had any impact on the play.

3. Recognizing the incidental contact rule and swinging back the other way. Letting too much go.

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.