Slight Body Contact on drive to basket

[JRutledge]

I do not agree with the "under no circumstances" line because there are always reasons not to say. We do have some level of a life outside of this and we can have plans to go somewhere else. But officials that are younger should make a habit of staying to watch varsity officials as you can learn or get different perspectives. I would say that if nothing else you can learn a lot of the tricks of the trade that never are talked about in meetings or training very often.

And if you are saying you could watch those other games, then that is great, but you cannot talk to them at all about their calls or actions. If you are around the officials watching, you can always go into the locker room and observe the things they talk about or ask them "Why did that get called like....?"

Of course there are always exceptions to anything, but most people should be doing this on some level. Heck those varsity officials might try to help you if you know you are trying to get better in some small way that will be invaluable. But I know I am not helping someone that is not trying to get better as a general rule. Staying and watching helps show you want to learn something.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not agree with the "under no circumstances" line because there are always reasons not to say.

Point taken. My words were most certainly too strong.

[Adam]

"Step by step" with the dribbler is not really good position.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.
Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

No, this is not incidental. They even changed the rule to reflect this.

In my experience, more will get stuck for calling too much than for calling too little. That's just my experience. There are obviously other reasons officials don't progress, and some certainly are too whistle-shy.

jtheump's stages need revised, IMO. I've said for years that the stages I've seen are:

1. Afraid to blow the whistle. This normally lasts only a few games, sometimes a bit longer.

2. Calling everything. Not just the handchecks, but every single contact they see regardless of whether it had any impact on the play.

3. Recognizing the incidental contact rule and swinging back the other way. Letting too much go.

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

All incidental.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BigCat

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

No, incidental contact is that which is permitted and doesn't constitute a foul. Whether or not the contact is an accident has nothing to do with it. When a screener makes contact with a defensive player, that contact is not accidental, but it is incidental. On the flip side, you can foul someone and not have "meant" to do it.

If by this you mean keeping a hand or hands on you, then yes, that's a 10-6-12 foul.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by letemplay

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

I have to disagree. Although the NBA and a high school are completely different it is not based on long benches, 6 fouls... Etc... I would suggest the NBA game, when it comes to these plays, is easier to officiate than a high school game. The players are more skilled and more likely to not have contact affect the drive. In a high school game with less skilled players it is more difficult to determine what really affects a shot and not so we make more calls.

Now back the the original post

1) referee the defense.you know what the offense is trying to do and where they are going.
2) assume the play is legal until the defender proves to you they violated the rule. If you can't articulate what the player did wrong, then they did not do it.

Goes back to understanding LGP. Never take away good defense. Never take away proper defense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by letemplay

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

I am going to have to disagree with this too as every time I have talked to an NBA Official or someone in their system, they do not do anything different than we do. And the NBA IMO calls more fouls than we do and are more consistent.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

[COLOR="red"]

If by this you mean keeping a hand or hands on you, then yes, that's a 10-6-12 foul.

I think its been a foul under the rules forever…long before 10-6-12. I think individual referees trying to judge if a hand on and remaining on the dribbler was an advantage was one of the things that lead us to rough/physical ugly basketball and to 10-6-12. There's never been any legitimate reason for a defender to place and leave a hand on the dribbler. (and this is what i meant by accidental) Also, as i mentioned earlier, if you have a hand on me while I'm dribbling and leave it there it does have an effect. Problem is to everyone else, including the referees, it may appear as if it doesn't. I think 10-6-12 and the ncaa cylinder rules are clarifying that those actions are fouls and should be called. I think however, that its been a foul under the rules for a long, long time. thx.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough......Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

I wouldn't say that blowing more or less is such a clear separator. There are boundaries, sure, and you want to follow your assigners' paradigms, but I think what's far more important is crew consistency. Have good pre-games, be a good partner, make calls that are like your partners' calls and pass on plays that are like plays your partners are passing on. Do that all the time with all kinds of different crews and you probably won't "stay at lower levels."

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I wouldn't say that blowing more or less is such a clear separator. There are boundaries, sure, and you want to follow your assigners' paradigms, but I think what's far more important is crew consistency. Have good pre-games, be a good partner, make calls that are like your partners' calls and pass on plays that are like plays your partners are passing on. Do that all the time with all kinds of different crews and you probably won't "stay at lower levels."

You know, there are many reasons why people don't advance so me saying it is because they don't blow the whistle enough Isnt the best way to say it. Obviously, if you blow it too much (you are always making wrong calls) or you don't blow it enough (train wrecks..assault and batteries with no whistle) your not going to advance. Having said that, I see far more people not blowing the whistle on things that are fouls than I do blowing it too much. Adam's number 4 is where we all want to be. I think the NFHS and NCAA giving us automatics is telling us that there weren't enough whistles being blown.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.