Slight Body Contact on drive to basket

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.
Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

No, this is not incidental. They even changed the rule to reflect this.

In my experience, more will get stuck for calling too much than for calling too little. That's just my experience. There are obviously other reasons officials don't progress, and some certainly are too whistle-shy.

jtheump's stages need revised, IMO. I've said for years that the stages I've seen are:

1. Afraid to blow the whistle. This normally lasts only a few games, sometimes a bit longer.

2. Calling everything. Not just the handchecks, but every single contact they see regardless of whether it had any impact on the play.

3. Recognizing the incidental contact rule and swinging back the other way. Letting too much go.

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.

I do not call the game differently from one level to the other unless a rule applies which most things like verticality, freedom of movement and what is a block-charge call are all the same.

What often those that only work high school do is they make the basic mistake by thinking what happens in college is about more than simple judgment.

Peace

[Remington]

4.23.3 SITUATION A:

B1 has obtained a legal guarding position on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1 moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1's torso.

RULING: Player-control foul by A1. (4-7-2)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Remington

4.23.3 SITUATION A:

B1 has obtained a legal guarding position on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1 moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1's torso.

RULING: Player-control foul by A1. (4-7-2)

I believe the OP's problem is judgement, not the actual written rules.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not call the game differently from one level to the other unless a rule applies which most things like verticality, freedom of movement and what is a block-charge call are all the same.

What often those that only work high school do is they make the basic mistake by thinking what happens in college is about more than simple judgment.

Peace

I'm not really sure what you meant by your bold point.

Rules aside, the game is inherently different between men/women and younger/older leagues. Walking onto 5A varsity game thinking you're going to treat it like a middle school game is, well..., good luck! We probably have different definitions of calling a game differently, but I'm adamant on my point that officials moving up don't adapt with the game they are officiating(At least not the ones that move up successfully).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm not really sure what you meant by your bold point.

Rules aside, the game is inherently different between men/women and younger/older leagues. Walking onto 5A varsity game thinking you're going to treat it like a middle school game is, well..., good luck! We probably have different definitions of calling a game differently, but I'm adamant on my point that officials moving up don't adapt with the game they are officiating(At least not the ones that move up successfully).

High school officials who never have interactions with higher level seem to think that there is some drastic instruction or philosophy that happens at the higher levels. There is not.

And I call the game exactly the same based on contact and whether a foul is to be called or not. I do not do anything different. The difference is that a kid in middle school might not handle contact the same as someone in college. But then again a kid in college is not as clumsy either. So what is considered incidental might vary, but that is more about the talent, not the level.

Peace

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

High school officials who never have interactions with higher level seem to think that there is some drastic instruction or philosophy that happens at the higher levels. There is not.

And I call the game exactly the same based on contact and whether a foul is to be called or not. I do not do anything different. The difference is that a kid in middle school might not handle contact the same as someone in college. But then again a kid in college is not as clumsy either. So what is considered incidental might vary, but that is more about the talent, not the level.

Peace

Agreed, and I meant them as one in the same. Moving up in an association doesn't make much since if it's going towards worst talent. ;p

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by buckeye38

New official here. I am having a tough time, especially as lead in 2 man crew, judging if slight contact...

I might have missed this in the replies, but I'm curious as to why the OP specifically mentioned 2-man crew. Honestly I missed that the first time I read the post. I couldn't help but wonder why there wasn't anyone offering advice about mechanics, so I went back and read the OP again worried that I missed something.

Since the OP stated a concern about having more difficulty with this judgement from lead in 2-man mechanics, I'm wondering if your positioning might be part of the issue. Being in the right position to fully assess the play is crucial and getting to the right position starts before the offensive player even starts the drive. If you are trying to get into the right position after the offense initiates the drive, you're probably not going to get there.

Other aspects to consider:

Where are the drives that you're having the most difficulty with being initiated and where are they going? Baseline drives from the wing can be challenging if you get too close to the play. I worked with a guy that thought the lead should camp out on the lane line extended. He hustled to get there, but anytime the ball was on the wing on his side, he was only able to see the ball handler and his defender because of his positioning. When there was a baseline drive toward him, I had a better angle to see contact from the trail position on the opposite side of the court. Drives from the top of key down the lane (or along the lane) have different challenges as there is typically more activity in the lane to watch (defensive post players reaching and offensive post players trying to screen) and the increased possibility of having your view obstructed by all the additional bodies. Sometimes there isn't a position the lead can be in to see everything, but that is why there is a trail to help.

Are the drives occurring during transition plays or during the half-court offense? Since you didn't mentioned in the OP, I'm wondering if you have considered how the difference between these situations impacts your positioning? Do you race back down the court trying to get to the baseline in front of a fast break play and find yourself with the added challenge of trying to look over your shoulder to see the entire play? If you can beat the play to the baseline and maintain a good angle to see the entire play, so be it. Sometimes you get a better angle from the sideline while allowing the play to finish in front of you rather than beating it to the baseline and having a bad angle.

If you feel you are more capable of making these calls from the trail or in 3-man mechanics, remember the principles by which you make the call are the same regardless of where you are or how many officials there are, so the judgement aspect of this is the same either way. Just work hard to get in the right position so you can see what you need to see to apply that judgement. Lastly whether the issue is your positioning or your judgement, follow the advice of others here and study (watch games, watch film, read the books, etc) and seek feedback from other officials.