Slight Body Contact on drive to basket

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound?

All incidental.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.
Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

No, this is not incidental. They even changed the rule to reflect this.

In my experience, more will get stuck for calling too much than for calling too little. That's just my experience. There are obviously other reasons officials don't progress, and some certainly are too whistle-shy.

jtheump's stages need revised, IMO. I've said for years that the stages I've seen are:

1. Afraid to blow the whistle. This normally lasts only a few games, sometimes a bit longer.

2. Calling everything. Not just the handchecks, but every single contact they see regardless of whether it had any impact on the play.

3. Recognizing the incidental contact rule and swinging back the other way. Letting too much go.

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.

I do not call the game differently from one level to the other unless a rule applies which most things like verticality, freedom of movement and what is a block-charge call are all the same.

What often those that only work high school do is they make the basic mistake by thinking what happens in college is about more than simple judgment.

Peace

[Remington]

4.23.3 SITUATION A:

B1 has obtained a legal guarding position on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1 moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1's torso.

RULING: Player-control foul by A1. (4-7-2)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Remington

4.23.3 SITUATION A:

B1 has obtained a legal guarding position on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1 moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1's torso.

RULING: Player-control foul by A1. (4-7-2)

I believe the OP's problem is judgement, not the actual written rules.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not call the game differently from one level to the other unless a rule applies which most things like verticality, freedom of movement and what is a block-charge call are all the same.

What often those that only work high school do is they make the basic mistake by thinking what happens in college is about more than simple judgment.

Peace

I'm not really sure what you meant by your bold point.

Rules aside, the game is inherently different between men/women and younger/older leagues. Walking onto 5A varsity game thinking you're going to treat it like a middle school game is, well..., good luck! We probably have different definitions of calling a game differently, but I'm adamant on my point that officials moving up don't adapt with the game they are officiating(At least not the ones that move up successfully).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm not really sure what you meant by your bold point.

Rules aside, the game is inherently different between men/women and younger/older leagues. Walking onto 5A varsity game thinking you're going to treat it like a middle school game is, well..., good luck! We probably have different definitions of calling a game differently, but I'm adamant on my point that officials moving up don't adapt with the game they are officiating(At least not the ones that move up successfully).

High school officials who never have interactions with higher level seem to think that there is some drastic instruction or philosophy that happens at the higher levels. There is not.

And I call the game exactly the same based on contact and whether a foul is to be called or not. I do not do anything different. The difference is that a kid in middle school might not handle contact the same as someone in college. But then again a kid in college is not as clumsy either. So what is considered incidental might vary, but that is more about the talent, not the level.

Peace

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BigCat

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

No, incidental contact is that which is permitted and doesn't constitute a foul. Whether or not the contact is an accident has nothing to do with it. When a screener makes contact with a defensive player, that contact is not accidental, but it is incidental. On the flip side, you can foul someone and not have "meant" to do it.

If by this you mean keeping a hand or hands on you, then yes, that's a 10-6-12 foul.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

[COLOR="red"]

If by this you mean keeping a hand or hands on you, then yes, that's a 10-6-12 foul.

I think its been a foul under the rules forever…long before 10-6-12. I think individual referees trying to judge if a hand on and remaining on the dribbler was an advantage was one of the things that lead us to rough/physical ugly basketball and to 10-6-12. There's never been any legitimate reason for a defender to place and leave a hand on the dribbler. (and this is what i meant by accidental) Also, as i mentioned earlier, if you have a hand on me while I'm dribbling and leave it there it does have an effect. Problem is to everyone else, including the referees, it may appear as if it doesn't. I think 10-6-12 and the ncaa cylinder rules are clarifying that those actions are fouls and should be called. I think however, that its been a foul under the rules for a long, long time. thx.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough......Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

I wouldn't say that blowing more or less is such a clear separator. There are boundaries, sure, and you want to follow your assigners' paradigms, but I think what's far more important is crew consistency. Have good pre-games, be a good partner, make calls that are like your partners' calls and pass on plays that are like plays your partners are passing on. Do that all the time with all kinds of different crews and you probably won't "stay at lower levels."

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I wouldn't say that blowing more or less is such a clear separator. There are boundaries, sure, and you want to follow your assigners' paradigms, but I think what's far more important is crew consistency. Have good pre-games, be a good partner, make calls that are like your partners' calls and pass on plays that are like plays your partners are passing on. Do that all the time with all kinds of different crews and you probably won't "stay at lower levels."

You know, there are many reasons why people don't advance so me saying it is because they don't blow the whistle enough Isnt the best way to say it. Obviously, if you blow it too much (you are always making wrong calls) or you don't blow it enough (train wrecks..assault and batteries with no whistle) your not going to advance. Having said that, I see far more people not blowing the whistle on things that are fouls than I do blowing it too much. Adam's number 4 is where we all want to be. I think the NFHS and NCAA giving us automatics is telling us that there weren't enough whistles being blown.