Fumbled Ball (cont)

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by mickhickva

Thanks for all the posts on my fumbled ball scenario...one response got me to thinking ... and that response was "that you cannot travel without the ball!" Makes lots of sense ...It did make me think of 3 hypothetical scenarios however... I would appreciate your expertise

In all three scenarios ... the offensive Player has picked up his dribble in the back court

A In A the offensive being closely regarded decides to roll the ball on the floor away from the double team ...while his chances may be slim to be the first to get to the ball ..lets say he or she does ...is this a violation ... and if so what violation Player A guilty of>

In B and C ...same scenario trapped in the backcourt but near opponent's basket ... In B --- Player A throws the ball off opponent's backboard and then races to get the ball! In C ...Player A turns and shoots it at the goal and chases down the rebound ..what are the violations in these scenarios? And what would the violation termed ...Travelling...illegal dribble?

9.5.3 of the NFHS Case Book seems to cover some aspects of your (A) hypothetical. A1 is dribbling and ends the dribble. A1 attempts a pass and (in 9.5.3 of the Case Book) the ball hits B1. A1 can recover the loose ball and dribble again. There is no violation because A1's pass was touched by or touched another player (Rule 9-5-3). (This would be the same result even if the ball had been first touched by A2.) If B1 had not touched the ball (your scenario), then if A1 recovered the ball and started a new dribble, this would be a Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Also see Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.) If A1 recovered the ball without it first having been touched by another player, but DID NOT dribble again, then there is no violation. Or if A1 gets to the ball and (if possible) immediately starts dribbling it, then there is also no violation. (See Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.)

Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.)

Regarding your scenario (c), under 4.44 Situation B of the Case Book, if A1 "attempts a try" (defined in Rule 4-41-2 as basically a legitimate throw for a goal), but shoots an air ball and is able to get the rebound before the ball hits the floor, there is no violation.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by requintero

Regarding your scenario (c), under 4.44 Situation B of the Case Book, if A1 "attempts a try" (defined in Rule 4-41-2 as basically a legitimate throw for a goal), but shoots an air ball and is able to get the rebound before the ball hits the floor, there is no violation.

When you know the rule and definition of a try you will have an answer to this one.

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by deecee

When you know the rule and definition of a try you will have an answer to this one.

Ahhhhh, I forgot that in the OP's scenario A1 is in their backcout. So when they turn and shoot at the goal presumably they are shooting at their opponent's basket. Therefore, this is not a "try" because under Rule 4-41-2 a try is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing the ball into their own's team basket. Therefore, if A1attempted a shot at their opponent's basket, managed to get the rebound before it hit the floor this would be a travelling violation as in 4.44.3 Situation C of the Case Book. Thanks for the clarification.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by requintero

Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.).

Not entirely true, unless it was ruled an attempt at a shot. Own backboard is part of a teams equipment(example: Jersey).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by requintero

Regarding your scenario (B), under 9.5 in the Case Book if A1 throws the ball against the opponent's backboard and is the first to touch the ball, this is Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Note: A1 could have thrown the ball against her own backboard.)

Originally Posted by Dad

Not entirely true, unless it was ruled an attempt at a shot. Own backboard is part of a teams equipment(example: Jersey).

Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

According to this ruling, can said player legally start a dribble if he had already ended his dribble before the ball hit the backboard (assuming the official deems this not to be a try)? Also, this ruling doesn't stipulate whether, or not, the player moves his feet during this situation. What other "equipment" (why the NFHS quotes?) may be used in this manner? Headbands?

This not my favorite casebook play. In my opinion this citation provides more questions than answers. I wish the NFHS would expound upon this play and give a more complete answer.

How about: Any ball thrown off a players own basket, or backboard, is to always be considered a try? Now that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately the NFHS hasn't made that ruling yet.

While it has many of the effects of a try, it really isn't. Thus, your suggestion isn't quite fitting.

I think that, yes, the player can then dribble. The player can move his/her feet.

I believe the idea is that, in order to remove ambiguity in the action, treat it as if it were a shot (don't call any violations) except that it isn't a since it isn't an attempt to throw in into the basket. So, if it doesn't hit the board at all, the player would still be subject to traveling since it wasn't a shot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think that, yes, the player can then dribble.

Rule citation please (assume the player already ended his dribble and the official deemed this play not to be a shot).

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Actually, it is.

The ruling is that a ball thrown off a player's own backboard my be legally retrieved by that player without regard to whether you think it was a shot or not.

Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Where does it say anything about being able to throw it off your own backboard and moving both feet to retrieve it? It doesn't count as a dribble if you throw it off your shoes/shorts/jersey/etc. You still can't run to get it.

See above. 9.5.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BigCat

See above. 9.5.

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

[Dad]

Wrongly stated, it's not even an exception. It's just considered equipment. The rules for an illegal dribble still stand. Nothing even hints at being able to circumvent the rule(s).

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

Save the attitude...please....Equipment is "other than something you wear" when the ball is thrown off your backboard. The backboard is your "team's equipment." As I said earlier, see 9.5. Only said as a reference and not as smart....s

Now, you think the play means I can throw ball off my backboard but, if not a try, I can't move to catch it. When, in the history of basketball, have you seen such a play? Never...what you may have seen is the player throw ball off his backboard, run and dunk, or like Michigan play posted here long ago.

You can read 9.5 the way you are but I think it's wayy to narrow.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Dad

Read it yourself, my point still stands. When is equipment anything other than something you wear? This is an exception in that you can throw the ball off the backboard and catch it without it being a dribble. You can not throw it off the backboard, take steps, and then catch it.

And..the backboard is the "teams equipment." Clearly I can't bounce the ball off of my own foot, run and catch it in air... but if you are on my team and I throw it off your "equipment"(shoe) I can do whatever I want. To say that the backboard is the same as a player's own shoe or shirt doesn't work.

I think the case play and the "equipment" language comes out of thin air when it comes to rules but they want the specific play I mentioned above to be legal. Too narrow for me to agree that the play means player can throw it off backboard but can't move to get it. That never happens so no need to have a play saying it legal...

[Rob1968]

[QUOTE=requintero;986287]9.5.3 of the NFHS Case Book seems to cover some aspects of your (A) hypothetical. A1 is dribbling and ends the dribble. A1 attempts a pass and (in 9.5.3 of the Case Book) the ball hits B1. A1 can recover the loose ball and dribble again. There is no violation because A1's pass was touched by or touched another player (Rule 9-5-3). (This would be the same result even if the ball had been first touched by A2.) If B1 had not touched the ball (your scenario), then if A1 recovered the ball and started a new dribble, this would be a Rule 9-5 illegal dribble violation. (Also see Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.) If A1 recovered the ball without it first having been touched by another player, but DID NOT dribble again, then there is no violation. Or if A1 gets to the ball and (if possible) immediately starts dribbling it, then there is also no violation. (See Case Book 7.1.1 Situation D.)

It seems to me that Case Book 7.1.1 D is referring to a player who had not been dribbling, and then ended the dribble, before attempting a pass. However, the scenario being discussed is regarding a player who had dribbled, and had ended the dribble, before attempting a pass. Thus, in this case, recovery of the attempted pass, constitutes a second dribble, if the player is the first to touch or recover, the ball, and upon being first to touch the ball, a violation has occurred.