NCAAM 10-second violation application...

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Ok. Having never worked with a shot clock before, can someone tell me if the console at the table shows tenths of a second on the operator's console at the table?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[La Rikardo]

This is also why they wait for 15 in the NBA. Since the last five seconds use tenths, then the ones digit for the final second will show 0 (with that tenths digit) and so the shot clock goes to 23 (imagine a tenths digit following that number) immediately when it starts. Without using tenths at the end of the shot clock, as in NCAA, it makes more sense for the number shown in the final second to be 1, so the clock doesn't drop from 30 to 29 until a second has elapsed following the clock starting.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[BoomerSooner]

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

[JRutledge]

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When the ball is legally touched, the shot clock is to start, no matter who touched it. That is how the rule is written.

Peace

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

When the ball is legally touched in-bounds on a throw-in. When the ball is possessed after a try. When Team Control changes on a steal or turnover.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

When it was deflected by B. Also, a visible count is used only when shot clock is off. Lead may well have the best look at times. Anybody can get it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

Out of curiosity, is it possible that the shot clock and the 10 second count don't align if a defender tips the inbound pass? As has been established, the shot clock starts upon being touched by any player, however per 9.3, "The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in that team's backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball."

My gut tells me the counts would start simultaneously in this case and that the wording of the rule is a little ambiguous. "A player" could refer to either team, but the phrase "that team's backcourt" could refer to the backcourt of the player that touched the ball or the backcourt of the team on which the count is being made. As a non-NCAA guy, I'd love the clarification.

The other question I have is whether a visible count is still appropriate at any time by NCAA rule. In researching the rules for the above commentary, I noted that 2.9 indicates the shot clock should be used to administer the 10-second backcourt count unless there is no shot clock visible. I guess my concern is that between teams playing at this high of a level, you could have situations where the backcourt count doesn't start with the shot clock at 30 seconds and it may be difficult for the covering official to check the shot clock. If the ball is deflected into the backcourt by a defender and retrieved without pressure, the T can glance up and determine the clock has XX seconds remaining when the ball was touched by the offense in the backcourt. If the defense is tightly pressing, the covering official might not be able to immediately glace up to the shot-clock. Would a visible 10-second be appropriate in that case? Would it be incumbent on the lead to check the shot clock so the T&C could focus on the action in the backcourt?

Any official can call a 10-second violation. I did it from the C this season.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Any official can call a 10-second violation. I did it from the C this season.

I'm on board with this as well. But is it a standard mechanic to have L check the shot clock on 10-second counts if the ball is deflected into the backcourt and closely contested by B? Or is it something that is more of a pregame discussion? For example, "Team B really likes to press and will fight for every loose ball tonight. If we have a ball deflected into the backcourt T&C will need to watch play closely, and T will need to help with any 10-second counts."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I'm on board with this as well. But is it a standard mechanic to have L check the shot clock on 10-second counts if the ball is deflected into the backcourt and closely contested by B? Or is it something that is more of a pregame discussion? For example, "Team B really likes to press and will fight for every loose ball tonight. If we have a ball deflected into the backcourt T&C will need to watch play closely, and T will need to help with any 10-second counts."

From my own experiences so far, it has yet to become a problem. The T is going to take a peek at the shot clock when the ball gains BC status on a deflection. We also have to check the shot clock to make sure it hasn't been reset.

[Raymond]

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

• When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

• When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

• If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

• When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

• When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

• If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

The plays in red are the same -- start the 10-second count when A touches the ball.

I think a count is ONLY allowed under 30-seconds (true in NCAAW,; not sure in NCAAM)

Here's a relevant NCAAM case play (with a typo corrected) (the same ruling applies in NCAAW):

A.R. 206. Team A has the ball for a throw-in under its own basket with
15 seconds on the shot clock. The ball is passed inbounds (1) into Team A’s
frontcourt where it is touched by a Team B player and then continues into
Team A’s backcourt where it is touched by a Team A player with 12 seconds
remaining on the shot clock, or (2) into Team A’s backcourt where it is first
touched by any player in the backcourt.
RULING 1: The shot clock starts on the initial touch by the Team
B player, but the backcourt count does not start until the Team A
player touches the ball in the backcourt with 12 seconds on the shot
clock. There will be a 10 second backcourt violation with 2 seconds
remaining on the shot clock if the ball fails to gain frontcourt status
in Team A’s continuous control.
2: When any player touches the ball on a throw-in, the shot clock
shall start. When the first touch occurs in Team A’s backcourt,
the 10 second backcourt count shall also begin. There will be a
10 second backcourt violation with 5 seconds remaining on the
shot clock when the ball fails to gain frontcourt status in Team A’s
continuous control.