Simultaneous Foul Involving Shooter

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by griblets

The confusing part (for me) was that one of the fouls was in the act of shooting. It's unnatural for a shooter to be fouled but not receive free throws, thus, the confusion.

Thanks to SNIPERBBB and you for clarifying for me.

There are a couple of case plays that deal with this (or similar). they are separated by a couple of pages so it's hard to compare them directly, but it's interesting to see the differences.

I'll try to find them tonight or tomorrow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

If you could determine which foul happened first, you could ignore the second foul if it doesn't reach the level of being a dead ball contact foul.

Not (by rule) if the first foul is committed against the shooter -- the ball isn't dead until the try ends, so the second "foul" is still during a live ball.

I agree with Nevada on the patient whistle part. I might go so far as to say very few "rebounding" fouls should be whistled until there's a rebound -- even if the push happened a second or two earlier.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not (by rule) if the first foul is committed against the shooter -- the ball isn't dead until the try ends, so the second "foul" is still during a live ball.

I agree with Nevada on the patient whistle part. I might go so far as to say very few "rebounding" fouls should be whistled until there's a rebound -- even if the push happened a second or two earlier.

That makes sense. Imagine this conversation...

Coach: Why did you call a foul on A2?
Official: It was a rebounding foul on him.
Coach: What rebound?
Official: Well, if it wasn't for the foul against the shooter, and the shot missed, there would have been a rebound.
Coach: But there was no rebound, so how can there be a foul on it?

Yeah, I'm sure you can explain a simultaneous foul and whatnot. Just thought that conversation would be funny. Or not.. you can decide. LOL

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

That makes sense. Imagine this conversation...

Coach: Why did you call a foul on A2?
Official: It was a rebounding foul on him.
Coach: What rebound?
Official: Well, if it wasn't for the foul against the shooter, and the shot missed, there would have been a rebound.
Coach: But there was no rebound, so how can there be a foul on it?

Yeah, I'm sure you can explain a simultaneous foul and whatnot. Just thought that conversation would be funny. Or not.. you can decide. LOL

I agree with Bob, but in your scenario, saying it was a rebounding foul is just the wrong thing to say in general. It was a push. Keep it simple and to the point, otherwise you open yourself up to the kinds of conversations you're imagining.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simply--no FTs and go to POI.
In a & c the ball became dead while in A1's hands so Team A is awarded a throw-in nearest that location. In b & d the try in flight causes the ball to remain live until the try ends, so the POI is determined by the result of the try. If successful, Team B is awarded an end line throw-in. If unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

This sounds more or less the same way your would administer a blarge call -- something that many officials around my parts pregame

Ball released on shot--AP if missed or count basket and B ball anywhere on endline if made
Ball not released (or released on a pass) -- Ball dead imediately. A in Team control at time of fouls so it remains A's ball for throwin.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

That makes sense. Imagine this conversation...

Coach: Why did you call a foul on A2?
Official: It was a rebounding foul on him.
Coach: What rebound?
Official: Well, if it wasn't for the foul against the shooter, and the shot missed, there would have been a rebound.
Coach: But there was no rebound, so how can there be a foul on it?

Yeah, I'm sure you can explain a simultaneous foul and whatnot. Just thought that conversation would be funny. Or not.. you can decide. LOL

That's why you use rule book terms, either a pushing or holding foul, in your conversations. Then we don't have to deal with this silliness.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I agree with Bob, but in your scenario, saying it was a rebounding foul is just the wrong thing to say in general. It was a push. Keep it simple and to the point, otherwise you open yourself up to the kinds of conversations you're imagining.

Yeah, I agree. That type of conversation Just came into my head, and I wanted to share it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SC Official

MTD, any foul that is part of a simultaneous foul is not a common foul, by definition.

Doesn't need to be, it's still committed by a teammate of the shooter, which is the actual wording of the rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

This sounds more or less the same way your would administer a blarge call -- something that many officials around my parts pregame

Ball released on shot--AP if missed or count basket and B ball anywhere on endline if made
Ball not released (or released on a pass) -- Ball dead imediately. A in Team control at time of fouls so it remains A's ball for throwin.

That's because simultaneous and double fouls are covered by the same rule.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

If you could determine which foul happened first, you could ignore the second foul if it doesn't reach the level of being a dead ball contact foul. Sans video assistance, unless one of the calling officials was able to both actions, odds are that isn't going to happen.

If one happened first, you don't have a simultaneous foul, but rather a false double foul.