Simultaneous Foul Involving Shooter

[griblets]

My playoff crew had an interesting situation the other night in a HS Regional Final. I'm still not comfortable that I know the correct application, so I seek input.

I'm going to split into different situations of the similar scenarios. I'm specifically interested in NFHS interpretations.

Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. Simultaneously, A2 fouls B2 while trying to get into rebounding position.

Situations:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.
d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

After some discussion, I'll share how we handled it.

[SNIPERBBB]

No free throws in any situation. In b and d you go AP for a missed shot or end line throwing,running, for a made basket.

A and c team A ball, I'd the basket was good it is now cancelled.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

No free throws in any situation. In b and d you go AP for a missed shot or end line throwing,running, for a made basket.

A and c team A ball, I'd the basket was good it is now cancelled.

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simply--no FTs and go to POI.
In a & c the ball became dead while in A1's hands so Team A is awarded a throw-in nearest that location. In b & d the try in flight causes the ball to remain live until the try ends, so the POI is determined by the result of the try. If successful, Team B is awarded an end line throw-in. If unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simple--no FTs and go to POI.

Nevada is correct. We had a similar conversation earlier this year with the same head-scratching answers from many officials. Kind of disappointing, frankly.

This is why when crews get together in situations like this we pretend like we know which foul or whistle came first. It's because we're not ready to administer the rule correctly. So we create some fiction to simplify the ruling. Not good form.


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[griblets]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul.

The confusing part (for me) was that one of the fouls was in the act of shooting. It's unnatural for a shooter to be fouled but not receive free throws, thus, the confusion.

Thanks to SNIPERBBB and you for clarifying for me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by griblets

The confusing part (for me) was that one of the fouls was in the act of shooting. It's unnatural for a shooter to be fouled but not receive free throws, thus, the confusion.

Thanks to SNIPERBBB and you for clarifying for me.

There are a couple of case plays that deal with this (or similar). they are separated by a couple of pages so it's hard to compare them directly, but it's interesting to see the differences.

I'll try to find them tonight or tomorrow.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simply--no FTs and go to POI.
In a & c the ball became dead while in A1's hands so Team A is awarded a throw-in nearest that location. In b & d the try in flight causes the ball to remain live until the try ends, so the POI is determined by the result of the try. If successful, Team B is awarded an end line throw-in. If unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

This sounds more or less the same way your would administer a blarge call -- something that many officials around my parts pregame

Ball released on shot--AP if missed or count basket and B ball anywhere on endline if made
Ball not released (or released on a pass) -- Ball dead imediately. A in Team control at time of fouls so it remains A's ball for throwin.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

This sounds more or less the same way your would administer a blarge call -- something that many officials around my parts pregame

Ball released on shot--AP if missed or count basket and B ball anywhere on endline if made
Ball not released (or released on a pass) -- Ball dead imediately. A in Team control at time of fouls so it remains A's ball for throwin.

That's because simultaneous and double fouls are covered by the same rule.

[rlarry]

If the ball is still in the shooters hand, cancel the shot and enforce the penalty as usual. In the bonus shoot, not in bonus designated spot throw in. If ball is in the air, shot counts if good. Then enforce the penalty as usual. Only a foul on the,shooter will kill a shot in flight

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[deecee]

All scenarios are administered the same way. The shot counts if made and then the ball is put into play at the POI. Made basket B gets ball on endline and can run. Missed shot, AP arrow.

This is a simultaneous foul so the fouls do not cause the ball to be dead as a PC/TC foul would.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by griblets

My playoff crew had an interesting situation the other night in a HS Regional Final. I'm still not comfortable that I know the correct application, so I seek input.

I'm going to split into different situations of the similar scenarios. I'm specifically interested in NFHS interpretations.

Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. Simultaneously, A2 fouls B2 while trying to get into rebounding position.

Situations:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.
d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

After some discussion, I'll share how we handled it.

All of the fouls are Common Fouls.


Team Control Foul by A2:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.

c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

A1's FGA does not count if it was successful and Team B receives the Ball for a Throw-in nearest the spot of A2's foul.



Not a Team Control Foul by A2:

b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.

d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

A1's FGA does count is successful. Team B receives the Ball for a Throw-in anywhere along the endline in Play (b). And the Team B player that was fouled will shoot FTs in Play (d).


MTD, Sr.


P.S. I woke up with a very bad head cold this morning (and I still feel like a crock of horse manure) and completely missed the B1's foul on airborne A1. I should not have been allowed anywhere near a computer today and I still feel like a crock of horse manure. Hopefully, I will feel well enough to add my two cents to this thread.

[SC Official]

MTD, any foul that is part of a simultaneous foul is not a common foul, by definition.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

MTD, any foul that is part of a simultaneous foul is not a common foul, by definition.

I am an incorrect fool.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

You mean double foul. Simultaneous fouls are committed by multiple opponents on the same player.

No, what you just described is a multiple foul, not a simultaneous foul. A simultaneous foul is just like the situation described in the OP. A double foul is two opponents committing fouls against each other, which is not what happened in the OP.

But for the purposes of the definition of "common foul," any foul that is part of a double, simultaneous, or multiple foul is not a common foul.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

No, what you just described is a multiple foul, not a simultaneous foul. A simultaneous foul is just like the situation described in the OP. A double foul is two opponents committing fouls against each other, which is not what happened in the OP.

But for the purposes of the definition of "common foul," any foul that is part of a double, simultaneous, or multiple foul is not a common foul.

yes you are correct, i brain farted between the 2.