Simultaneous Foul Involving Shooter

[griblets]

My playoff crew had an interesting situation the other night in a HS Regional Final. I'm still not comfortable that I know the correct application, so I seek input.

I'm going to split into different situations of the similar scenarios. I'm specifically interested in NFHS interpretations.

Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. Simultaneously, A2 fouls B2 while trying to get into rebounding position.

Situations:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.
d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

After some discussion, I'll share how we handled it.

[SNIPERBBB]

No free throws in any situation. In b and d you go AP for a missed shot or end line throwing,running, for a made basket.

A and c team A ball, I'd the basket was good it is now cancelled.

[rlarry]

If the ball is still in the shooters hand, cancel the shot and enforce the penalty as usual. In the bonus shoot, not in bonus designated spot throw in. If ball is in the air, shot counts if good. Then enforce the penalty as usual. Only a foul on the,shooter will kill a shot in flight

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[deecee]

All scenarios are administered the same way. The shot counts if made and then the ball is put into play at the POI. Made basket B gets ball on endline and can run. Missed shot, AP arrow.

This is a simultaneous foul so the fouls do not cause the ball to be dead as a PC/TC foul would.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by griblets

My playoff crew had an interesting situation the other night in a HS Regional Final. I'm still not comfortable that I know the correct application, so I seek input.

I'm going to split into different situations of the similar scenarios. I'm specifically interested in NFHS interpretations.

Airborne A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. Simultaneously, A2 fouls B2 while trying to get into rebounding position.

Situations:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.
c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.
d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

After some discussion, I'll share how we handled it.

All of the fouls are Common Fouls.


Team Control Foul by A2:

a) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.

c) A2's foul occurs before the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

A1's FGA does not count if it was successful and Team B receives the Ball for a Throw-in nearest the spot of A2's foul.



Not a Team Control Foul by A2:

b) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is not in the bonus.

d) A2's foul occurs after the ball leaves A1's hand, B is in the bonus.

A1's FGA does count is successful. Team B receives the Ball for a Throw-in anywhere along the endline in Play (b). And the Team B player that was fouled will shoot FTs in Play (d).


MTD, Sr.


P.S. I woke up with a very bad head cold this morning (and I still feel like a crock of horse manure) and completely missed the B1's foul on airborne A1. I should not have been allowed anywhere near a computer today and I still feel like a crock of horse manure. Hopefully, I will feel well enough to add my two cents to this thread.

[SC Official]

MTD, any foul that is part of a simultaneous foul is not a common foul, by definition.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

MTD, any foul that is part of a simultaneous foul is not a common foul, by definition.

I am an incorrect fool.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

You mean double foul. Simultaneous fouls are committed by multiple opponents on the same player.

No, what you just described is a multiple foul, not a simultaneous foul. A simultaneous foul is just like the situation described in the OP. A double foul is two opponents committing fouls against each other, which is not what happened in the OP.

But for the purposes of the definition of "common foul," any foul that is part of a double, simultaneous, or multiple foul is not a common foul.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

No, what you just described is a multiple foul, not a simultaneous foul. A simultaneous foul is just like the situation described in the OP. A double foul is two opponents committing fouls against each other, which is not what happened in the OP.

But for the purposes of the definition of "common foul," any foul that is part of a double, simultaneous, or multiple foul is not a common foul.

yes you are correct, i brain farted between the 2.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

No free throws in any situation. In b and d you go AP for a missed shot or end line throwing,running, for a made basket.

A and c team A ball, I'd the basket was good it is now cancelled.

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simply--no FTs and go to POI.
In a & c the ball became dead while in A1's hands so Team A is awarded a throw-in nearest that location. In b & d the try in flight causes the ball to remain live until the try ends, so the POI is determined by the result of the try. If successful, Team B is awarded an end line throw-in. If unsuccessful, the AP arrow is used.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the only correct response so far. I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul. The rule is simple--no FTs and go to POI.

Nevada is correct. We had a similar conversation earlier this year with the same head-scratching answers from many officials. Kind of disappointing, frankly.

This is why when crews get together in situations like this we pretend like we know which foul or whistle came first. It's because we're not ready to administer the rule correctly. So we create some fiction to simplify the ruling. Not good form.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[griblets]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm surprised that people are so confused as to how to administer a simultaneous foul.

The confusing part (for me) was that one of the fouls was in the act of shooting. It's unnatural for a shooter to be fouled but not receive free throws, thus, the confusion.

Thanks to SNIPERBBB and you for clarifying for me.

[griblets]

So, I was the official at C that called the foul on A2 pushing to get rebound position. My partner at L called the shooting foul. As he came around, I asked what he had. When he told me only the shooter as he passed by, I realized he had no idea I had a double whistle (gym was very loud). Knowing that nobody else knew I had something different, I made a quick decision that my foul was insignificant to the play, and went to L to administer the free throw.

Upon searching previous threads, I found support for my action.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Had this play in an NCAA scrimmage. Final Four official observing said we need to go with the shooting foul and rule the rebounding foul as incidental contact (which is what the 2 officials decided, they just took too long to accomplish it).

Right or wrong? It's right when I'm working for certain supervisors.

[Nevadaref]

I find this kind of advice by high level officials to be terribly misleading.

There is an element of quality advice to it, which is the principle of keeping it simple. When officials call oddball & unexpected things the possibility of problems is introduced because (a) the officials may not administer the situation correctly and (b) the coaches, players, and spectators likely will not understand or accept the decision very easily and this can upset the human emotions in the game leading to further issues.

On the other hand, the phrasing of this advice could send the wrong message to the crew being observed. They may comprehend that the official is telling them to ignore a clear foul. I hope that isn't what is being communicated and that the higher level observer isn't advocating administering the rules incorrectly. What I hope is being offered is that the off-ball official be much more patient with his whistle and have a higher threshhold for what constitutes a rebounding foul in a situation in which no rebound will occur. This thinking has merit to it because there isn't going to be a possession consequence to the contact, so the only reason that it would need to be called is to clean up rough play, in which case the contact should be rather significant.

If after hearing that advice, the off-ball official still deemed that that the pushing foul needed to be called (perhaps the opponent was shoved to the floor), then I would advise the crew that they better know the rules on how to penalize these two fouls. Handling strange plays with certainty and precision, as well as communicating the procedure well, carries a lot of wieght in the evaluation.

[SNIPERBBB]

If you could determine which foul happened first, you could ignore the second foul if it doesn't reach the level of being a dead ball contact foul. Sans video assistance, unless one of the calling officials was able to both actions, odds are that isn't going to happen.