out of bounds rule.

[upprdeck]

player saves a ball.. goes out of bounds. comes back in and touches it. in the last 2 weeks we have had this called several ways..

1 game it was a violation
1 game it was not a violation
1 game it was a violation because the player did not touch with both feet.
1 game it was not a violation and the player never came back in and touched the ground before touching the ball.

i looked on several high sites and got various answers from officials. I see it answered differently on sites that have tests..

I finally ordered a rule book because so many mistakes are being made by officials in our games.

its clearly a violation under NCAA rules. what is the rule in HS and if its different why do we have 2 sets of rules on a play like this?

and while i am waiting for the rule book just how do you interpret the 3ft rule on out of bounds playing movement? is it 3 ft circle when handed the ball is it 3 ft either direction?

[JugglingReferee]

The HS rule is that a player that goes out of bounds after "saving a ball" can absolutely gain possession so long as he re-establishes himself inbounds, which means that no part of his body is touching out of bounds.

The quickest way a player will re-establish in bounds is two-fold: (1) to have the first foot back in bounds, and then (2) the instant that the second foot (that it still out of bounds) is raised from the out-of-bounds floor, he is now in bounds again.

Re: the in-bounding case, my provincial association says that it is 3 feet either direction.

[Adam]

1. It's not a violation under NCAA rules.
2. As long as something is touching in bounds and nothing is touching OOB, he has established position in bounds. Two feet are not required, although I've seen officials call it that way.
3. Bottom line, it's not a violation in high school as long as one foot (or something) touches in bounds (assuming nothing is currently touching OOB) before he touches the ball.

4. If you knew how the "3 foot rule" was worded, your question would answer itself.

4-42-6: The designated throw-in spot is 3 feet wide with no depth limitation

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Re: the in-bounding case, my provincial association says that it is 3 feet either direction.

Really? That makes a 6 foot spot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

its clearly a violation under NCAA rules.

No, it's not. It's clearly NOT a violation.

what is the rule in HS and if its different why do we have 2 sets of rules on a play like this?

Same rule in HS and NCAA. If the player is inbounds, then s/he can touch the ball. It's ruled differently because (a) it might be different in the NBA; (b) it might be different in football and people attempt to apply that; (c) inexperienced refs might just apply some "myth" and not bother to read the rules; (d) apparently the rule can be confusing to read (based on your comment above -- and I don't mean that as a slam against you).

and while i am waiting for the rule book just how do you interpret the 3ft rule on out of bounds playing movement? is it 3 ft circle when handed the ball is it 3 ft either direction?

3 feet wide (parallel to the boundary line) and unlimited depth (back to the wall / bleachers).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really? That makes a 6 foot spot.

That was the most recently interp that I've heard.

When you are handed the ball, who says that the "3 feet" extend to 1.5 feet either way. Why can't it work 3 feet to one way?

I see what you're saying. No, you don't get 3 feet either way. You can pick your direction, and go up to 3 feet in that direction. Then when you return, you can only go so far as the original spot. In other words, the thrower-in decides where his initial spot is laterally among the 3 feet.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

That was the most recently interp that I've heard.

When you are handed the ball, who says that the "3 feet" extend to 1.5 feet either way. Why can't it work 3 feet to one way?

I see what you're saying. No, you don't get 3 feet either way. You can pick your direction, and go up to 3 feet in that direction. Then when you return, you can only go so far as the original spot. In other words, the thrower-in decides where his initial spot is laterally among the 3 feet.

Gotcha. Interesting, but the rule says the spot is determined by the official. That said, render runto Caesar....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Sorry, this part is a bit foggy to me. Can he go 4 feet in either direction? Can he go 4 feet in one direction after going 4 feet in the other lateral direction?

As long as he/she keeps one foot on or above the original 3-foot box, yes. So if they had a gymnastics background (their name was Rerun) they could even do a splits during the throw-in.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

player saves a ball.. goes out of bounds. comes back in and touches it. in the last 2 weeks we have had this called several ways..

1 game it was a violation
1 game it was not a violation
1 game it was a violation because the player did not touch with both feet.
1 game it was not a violation and the player never came back in and touched the ground before touching the ball.

i looked on several high sites and got various answers from officials. I see it answered differently on sites that have tests..

It is not illegal. This isn't the NFL.

I finally ordered a rule book because so many mistakes are being made by officials in our games.

I understand. I've order several coaching books and manuals, including "Coaching for Dummies, for the same reason.

its clearly a violation under NCAA rules. what is the rule in HS and if its different why do we have 2 sets of rules on a play like this?

No, it's not.

and while i am waiting for the rule book just how do you interpret the 3ft rule on out of bounds playing movement? is it 3 ft circle when handed the ball is it 3 ft either direction?

No, it is not a circle.

The thrower does not decide where his intial spot is.

The official designates the spot.

The spot is 3' wide.

As long as he keeps either foot on/over that spot, he may be able to move several 2-4 feet outside the spot with his second foot, in either direction.

[upprdeck]

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

The part in red is the key. A player whose momentum takes him OOB while saving the ball (or other similar activity) is not restricted by this rule. Basically, it's there for the player who decides to run OOB to get around defenders.

The NFHS (High School) equivalent is 9-3-3:

A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason

The only difference is in the NFHS, it's a violation as soon as the player steps OOB. In NCAA, it's not a violation until the player becomes the first to touch the ball. But in both rule sets, it's not a violation if the player went OOB due to momentum from a legitimate play.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The only difference is in the NFHS, it's a violation as soon as the player steps OOB.

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

What article? He posted the NCAA rule, where it's not a violation to leave the floor for an unauthorized reason. The violation is for, essentially, being the first to touch the ball after returning from leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. (paraphrased)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Right. Still, that's the thing that's always thrown me off about the article upprdeck posted. If you leave the floor for an unauthorized reason anyway, isn't that article moot?

The article posted is from the NCAA rules, under "Penalties". As Snaqs posted, it is essentially the same play where in NFHS it is a violation immendiately for leaving the court voluntarily, it is only a violation in NCAA if that player is the first to touch or receive a pass after coming back in bounds.

There is also an A.R. (case play) that mentions what the NCAA considers as "voluntarily" leaving the court:

A.R. 168.

A1 deflects a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds but A1, who is off balance, falls outside the end line. A1 returns to the playing court, secures control of the ball, and dribbles.

RULING: Legal. A1 has not left the playing court voluntarily and was not in control of the ball when leaving the playing court. The same should be true when A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the playing court. The try is unsuccessful, and A1 comes onto the playing court and regains control of the ball.

(Rule 7-1-1, 4-46-1.a, 9-4-1 and 9-4-2)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

so what does this mean>

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then
becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court
has committed a violation.

Usually seen when a player runs OOB along the endline and then returns inbounds to receive a pass.

Call the violation just last Saturday.