Five Second, while holding in college

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Three feet for women.

Peace

Nope. 6 feet for men's and women's.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You obviously did not read or understand his post. It was very clear to me and others ...

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Three feet for women.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

it's the same in NCAAW and NCAAM as of this season: six feet only when holding the ball in the frontcourt.

What's hard to understand about JetMetFan's post? What's not clear about JetMetFan's post? In regard to my questions about the distance for closely guarded in the college game, JetMetFan replies that, in both mens, and womens, college basketball, it's six feet, for holding, in the frontcourt. The "and" in his answer implied that it was the same for both gender rule sets.

As a high school only official, JRutledge's answer (three feet for women), and JetMetFan's answer (six feet for both men and women), confused me. Each individual post was clear, and easy to understand. One has to be correct, and one has to be incorrect. That's what confused me. Two different answers.

And now, I'm really confused:

Originally Posted by frezer11

6 feet for men's and women's.

Two for six feet? One for three feet? Who's an official ignorant in NCAA rules (namely me) to believe? Do I start a poll?

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Three feet for women.

Peace

Changes made to NCAA Women's as of 2014 season.
The closely guarded rule in the frontcourt remains, however it has been changed to read, “A player holding the ball for five seconds with a defender not exceeding six feet will be a violation.” Previously, the defender had to be within three feet of the offensive player with the ball to force a five second violation.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's hard to understand? What's not clear? In regard to my questions about the distance for closely guarded in the college game, JetMetFan replies that, in both mens, and womens, college basketball, it's six feet, for holding, in the frontcourt. The "and" in his answer implied that it was the same for both gender rule sets.

As a high school only official, JRutledge's answer (three feet for women), and JetMetFan's answer (six feet for both men and women), confused me.

And now, I'm really confused:



Two for six feet? One for three feet? Who's official ignorant in NCAA rules to believe?

Six feet holding only in NCAA men & women
Six feet holding or dribbling in NFHS

The OP shows a college player holding a ball closely guarded (within 2 ft.) for 12 seconds without ever even getting a count started. That's lazy, lack of knowledge or total disregard for a rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Changes made to NCAA Women's as of 2014 season. The closely guarded rule in the frontcourt remains, however it has been changed to read, “A player holding the ball for five seconds with a defender not exceeding six feet will be a violation.” Previously, the defender had to be within three feet of the offensive player with the ball to force a five second violation.

Can I get a second?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

As someone who started officiating women's college basketball back in the "Ancient Days" (1974 to be exact), as well as being a USA Basketball Referee in the 1990s, I probably have more experience (time wise with the "Closely Guarded" rule of all five or six rules: NBCofUS&C, NAGWS, NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA, I will finally add my two cents to this thread.

The "Closely Guarded" rule found its way into the NFHS and NCAA Basketball Rules Books from two different directions: 1) NFHS and NCAA Men's from the NBCofUS&C rules set, while 2) the NCAA Women's from the NAGWS (which took it directly from the FIBA rules set) rules set.

I will address the easiest of the two first: NCAA Women's. The FIBA "Closely Guarded" rule has been the same for at least 42 years because the 1974-75 season was my first year officiating women's college basketball so my NAGWS books start with that school year. The rule was: Being guarded (within 3 feet) for five seconds while holding the ball anywhere on the court. NAGWS patterned its rules set on a combination of NBCof US&C and FIBA rules. Its "Closely Guarded" rule was exactly like FIBA's (which has as it distance as one meter) rule. FIBA did not have a 10 second rule for advancing the ball and therefore neither did NAGWS. When the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Committee was formed it adopted the NAGWS "Closely Guarded" rule. And that rule has been the same until the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Committee amended it to apply only in a team's front court and the distance was expanded to 6 feet, starting with the 2013-14 season.

Until this season the NFHS and NCAA Men's has always been the same. But how did both groups get to the same rule (prior to this season)? You don't want to ask, except that it started before the NBCofUS&C split into the NFHS and NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committees. But it goes back to days when the front court was divided into the mid-court and the fore-court, and one does not want to even ask about when the five second count was in effect. But it was fun back then and not so simple as it is today.

If I would basketball rules dictator for one day, I would write the "Closely Guarded" rule as such: a) five seconds, b) only holding the ball, and c) only in the Front Court.

So ends the history lesson.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

'

You obviously did not read or understand his post. It was very clear to me and others if you were not always trying to dissect something.

What's clear is that you were flat out WRONG. Now do you have the manhood to admit it for once in your life or will we be subject to more double-speak?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What's clear is that you were flat out WRONG. Now do you have the manhood to admit it for once in your life or will we be subject to more double-speak?

Why don't you come out here and see what real manhood is? Because all that crap you love to talk would get you run out of here. Don't believe me, ask your friend from that way. Something tells me they would eat you alive.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Your response seems to indicate you think something different or at least have some other possible justification... Do tell!
What would you call a no count after 11-12 seconds?
Are they unsure of when to count?
Are they ignoring the rule?
Did the L forget the rule?
Does the L think it's not closely guarded?
Is it too late in the game to be concerned with this rule?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who is they? College guys I work with properly count, as do I.

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[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who is they? College guys I work with properly count, as do I.

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Did you see the OP and the video?
"They" are the officials in the video and referenced in the OP... The L should have a count sometime before the 12 seconds lapsed. Heck, the defender is wondering what he has to do - so he puts his hand on the offensive player...

What possible justification could there be for this?
Allowing him to hold for five and then starting the count would be wrong; but 12 seconds and no count is just... goofy!

[Nevadaref]

Notice there's still no admission from Rut that he was dead wrong.
He's running his playbook: Dodge the question, change the topic, point a finger elsewhere, do anything to distract people from the fact at hand.

It is crystal clear that his ego just can't take it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Notice there's still no admission from Rut that he was dead wrong. He's running his playbook: Dodge the question, change the topic, point a finger elsewhere, do anything to distract people from the fact at hand.

JRutledge: You've read the other posts, so what's your answer for NCAA Women closely guarded (holding only, frontcourt only), three feet, or six feet?

If you were indeed mistaken, there's nothing wrong with making a mistake. We all make them. I make a lot of them.

It's real easy to correct a mistake. Just say, "I made a mistake", amend the mistake, and move on. There's no shame in that.

We can all learn from our own mistakes, and from the mistakes of others, especially when we get the error corrected.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Notice there's still no admission from Rut that he was dead wrong.
He's running his playbook: Dodge the question, change the topic, point a finger elsewhere, do anything to distract people from the fact at hand.

It is crystal clear that his ego just can't take it.

There is nothing to admit dumbazz. I do not work women's college basketball.
How you like them apples. I don't have to like someone I know.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who is they? College guys I work with properly count, as do I.

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Same here. I cannot think of a time or situations where I did not see a count. Not the distance might be in question, but certainly not the count.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JRutledge: You've read the other posts, so what's your answer for NCAA Women closely guarded (holding only, frontcourt only), three feet, or six feet?

If you were indeed mistaken, there's nothing wrong with making a mistake. We all make them. I make a lot of them.

It's real easy to correct a mistake. Just say, "I made a mistake", amend the mistake, and move on. There's no shame in that.

We can can learn from our own mistakes, and from the mistakes of others, especially when we get the error corrected.

I do not work women's college basketball, but it used to be 3 feet. The rulebooks are separate, but if you read Jet's post, it was IMO obvious what he was saying. He works women's basketball, I do not.

Peace