Holding/No Holding on Play w/ Fumble

[kd0254]

Looking for opinions and interpretations:

Toss left and A32 is hit and fumbles backwards. The ball bounces back 5 yards or so and the defensive end, B92, is running towards the ball. The QB A12 wraps his arms around B92 and brings him to the ground.

Holding/Illegal Use of Hand or no call.

I have read 2-3-4c and 2-3-5c and 9-2 and it isn't cut and dry to me.

My thoughts are it is still holding/illegal use of hands. Others have said there is no holding on players going for a loose ball.

Thoughts, references are apprecaited.

[waltjp]

Holding.

[kdf5]

Remember Rule 2 are the definitions. There are no fouls in Rule 2. 2-3-4 defines actions that offensive players can/can't do. 2-3-4c says he can use hands or arms when blocking: To push, pull or ward off an opponent when the ball is loose if he may legally touch or possess the ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands.

Now go to 9-2-1 as it describes what's illegal for offensive players. 9-2-1a is IUH. 9-2-1c says it's holding for an offensive player to use his hands, arms or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by kd0254

Looking for opinions and interpretations:

Toss left and A32 is hit and fumbles backwards. The ball bounces back 5 yards or so and the defensive end, B92, is running towards the ball. The QB A12 wraps his arms around B92 and brings him to the ground.

Holding/Illegal Use of Hand or no call.

I have read 2-3-4c and 2-3-5c and 9-2 and it isn't cut and dry to me.

My thoughts are it is still holding/illegal use of hands. Others have said there is no holding on players going for a loose ball.

Thoughts, references are apprecaited.

It is my understanding that A12 CAN hold B92 in an effort to recover the loose ball HIMSELF, but he cannot hold B92 so that a TEAMMATE can recover the loose ball. The same would go for B.

I don't have a reference though.

I could be wrong too...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

2-3-4c says he can use hands or arms when blocking: To push, pull or ward off an opponent when the ball is loose if he may legally touch or possess the ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of hands.

I've always found this provision troubling: how can a player pull another player without holding him?

"Pushing" and "warding off" can be done within the restrictions that prohibit holding. I don't understand how pulling could be.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by refbuz

It is my understanding that A12 CAN hold B92 in an effort to recover the loose ball HIMSELF, but he cannot hold B92 so that a TEAMMATE can recover the loose ball. The same would go for B.

I don't have a reference though.

I could be wrong too...

Rule 2-3-4 and 2-3-5. A player can 'pull' and opponent to get to the runner or a loose ball.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

Rule 2-3-4 and 2-3-5. A player can 'pull' and opponent to get to the runner or a loose ball.

As noted above, NF:2-3-4c, allows the offensive player to do certain things, but specifically excludes, "pass interference, personal foul and illegal use of the hands."

NF: 9-2-1c defines Illegal Use of the Hands (for an offensive player) to prohibit, "Use his hands, arms, or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent."

The intent seems clear that an offensive player is allowed to "pull" an opponent out of the way in an effort to recover a loose ball, but action designed or intended to restrain an opponent is illegal.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

As noted above, NF:2-3-4c, allows the offensive player to do certain things, but specifically excludes, "pass interference, personal foul and illegal use of the hands."

NF: 9-2-1c defines Illegal Use of the Hands (for an offensive player) to prohibit, "Use his hands, arms, or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent."

The intent seems clear that an offensive player is allowed to "pull" an opponent out of the way in an effort to recover a loose ball, but action designed or intended to restrain an opponent is illegal.

As I posted above, 9-2-1c is holding. 9-2-1a is illegal use of hands. Illegal use of hands is any violation of the definitions found in 2-3.

[whitehat]

[QUOTE
The intent seems clear that an offensive player is allowed to "pull" an opponent out of the way in an effort to recover a loose ball, but action designed or intended to restrain an opponent is illegal.[/QUOTE]

I'm with ajmc here. Although seeing this, judging it quickly and correctly with all the bodies flying around and then flagging it may be another matter ...