Five Second, while holding in college

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I will use the "not closely guarded" signal when in a situation where a coach or player may think there should be closely-guarded count, as a way to communicate that yes... I am paying attention.

I'll also use it if I have a count, and then the dribbler moves away from the defender or the defender backs off.

I don't see a problem with using it as a means to communicate. The book doesn't say we should talk players out of trouble, but we do it anyway.

Do you pregame this?
Would it be odd to be in a game where one official is and the other(s) aren't?
Also, does this communicate that we're alert and engaged?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Do you pregame this?
Would it be odd to be in a game where one official is and the other(s) aren't?
Also, does this communicate that we're alert and engaged?

No

I've never had anyone, partner, observer, or otherwise, tell me if was wrong or odd or bad.

Maybe, maybe not. But I've yet to hear it's a problem or bad idea. If I do, then I'll adjust.

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[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very obvious. NCAA Women, and NCAA Men, are the same. Six feet. Holding. Frontcourt.



Also, very obvious. NCAA Women. Three feet.

Both clear. Both obvious. Both easy to understand. Both can't be correct. One must be incorrect.

Billy, he's never going to say he was wrong. Better to just leave it alone.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

"Who justified it?" I have no idea, but I'm sure there is some reasoning...
I think I asked a question: Do you think? Perhaps you're the one with the problem... You're taking the thread personal.
I watch college officials to learn, which is why I saw this.
The question is about the new rule perhaps making college officials lazy... I can't imagine another reason why this would get over looked to the tune of 12 seconds?
If it was a high school change and this happen - I'd say the same.

You're obviously stuck on this one official as a representative of all officials.

I'm a college and I use the mechanic. I just looked at the video from my last game and I used it 7 seconds into the game, then again 4 seconds later, then my crew chief 7 seconds later; three times on the first possession of the game.

Why don't you ask one of your mentors who is a college official if he is lazy? Why don't you send an email to the official in question and ask him why he doesn't use it? Why ask random folks who had nothing to do with that official or that game?

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[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You're obviously stuck on this one official as a representative of all officials.

I'm a college and I use the mechanic. Why don't you send an email to the official in question and adk him why he doesn't use it?

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You seem stuck.
The OP wasn't about one official, though now that you're stuck on it; I think I see how you got that from the OP.
The OP was about closely guarded five seconds and my question was; is the new rule perhaps to blame for this blatant overlooking of the obvious. Now, you may feel like this is an insult to the game officials... wasn't m intent!
I'm sure these are excellent officials and I can't imagine why they aren't counting?
BTW: I started the post off by saying I worked college on Saturday. I watch other officials to learn and happen to see this - figured it'd make for a good discussion... didn't know you'd read it as an indictment on every official that works college?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very obvious. NCAA Women, and NCAA Men, are the same. Six feet. Holding. Frontcourt.

Billy, we (NCAAW) were three feet/holding anywhere on the court for a few seasons until 2013-14. The rules committee changed to six feet/frontcourt only that season and gave the following rationale:

With the adoption of the 10-second back court violation count, there was no need for a closely guarded count on a hold in the back court. In addition, extending the closely guarded distance from 3 feet to 6 feet will encourage defenders to not have to guard the ball handler so closely which should decrease contact on the dribbler.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The biggest reason I don't use the "not closely guarded signal"? I am 64 years old and it takes energy to have to hold my arms out and that is energy that I can use to "run" up and down the court, .

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Very obvious. NCAA Women, and NCAA Men, are the same. Six feet. Holding. Frontcourt.



Also, very obvious. NCAA Women. Three feet.

Both clear. Both obvious. Both easy to understand. Both can't be correct. One must be incorrect.

A couple things. I said that Jet's post was clear. It was. He knows women's rules. He spoke on the topic he has made it very clear he knows and does on a regular basis. I never disagreed with his post or said he was wrong or said my post was right either. Actually I did not even see his post when I responded to you the first time. I never even suggested I was right. I said what I knew the rule to be and Jet made is position very clear. I said nothing and basically have been ignoring you because you tend to major in the minors a lot on this site and seemingly in your officiating, so I left it alone. If you do not trust Jet on his knowledge of women's basketball, then you really have not been paying attention to his posts for some time now. He often is spot on with what is going on at that level from what supervisors say and what that level focuses on. I work Men's college and usually my games are after the women's games. I tend to not watch them often as I am worried about my games, I know those rules and have to adjudicate those rules on the men's side. I know of many of the differences, but not all of them. That is why I said to you, Jet's post was clear. But as usual that was not good enough for you as usual. I am surprised you did post a silly picture that you found on the internet when you can not only look up these rules on the NCAA website, but you can look in the back of your own rulebook and see the differences. If everything has to be spelled out for you, well then that is why many other questions you have never get answered.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never disagreed with his post or said he was wrong or said my post was right either.

Disagreed? Literally, true. Wrong? Literally, true. Those words were never posted.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Three feet for women.

This post (above) was in direct opposition to JetMetFan's post.

One post was in error. Maybe it should have been acknowledged by the poster as being incorrect, once said poster realized that he was wrong. That's what I, and many other Forum members would have done.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... when you can not only look up these rules on the NCAA website, but you can look in the back of your own rulebook and see the differences.

True, but I've also got a great resource here on the Forum, often getting a reliable answer in a matter of minutes.

I initially believed JRutledge's post (three feet) to be true because we use three feet for girls prep school games here in Connecticut.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

True, but I've also got a great resource here on the Forum, often getting a reliable answer in a matter of minutes.

I initially believed JRutledge's post (three feet) to be true because we use three feet for girls prep school games here in Connecticut.

What is your point? JMF is an NCAA Women's official; you should know that by now and you should know his rules citation for women is more reliable than Jeff's. Why should anything else matter? If you read conflicting information here, then do your own due diligence instead of relying on other people to do it for you.

As usual you are focused on the most unimportant part of the conversation.

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[A Pennsylvania Coach]

This thread has so many examples of the worst in Internet message boards. OP, you clearly attempted to indict most or all college officials for ignoring a rule with a single example of the rule being ignored. The plural of anecdote is not data. You offended several of the college officials who frequent this board.

Then another longtime member was wrong about something". No big deal and no shame on him; it was from a rule set he doesn't use because he doesn't work women's college basketball. Rather than own it, he attempts several times to obfuscate it. Just own it and move on.

Here's all we needed to respond to the OP: Yes, this play needed a count, and the official erred in not doing so. It's possible his assigner doesn't want that called. No, this one example doesn't mean this is being widely ignored and several experienced members have assured you that they don't see it being ignored. Next time, don't try to paint with such a broad brush unless you can back it up.

We've got a great community here with so much experience and many levels. I hate when these discussions devolve into something like this.

[DrPete]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

This thread has so many examples of the worst in Internet message boards. OP, you clearly attempted to indict most or all college officials for ignoring a rule with a single example of the rule being ignored. The plural of anecdote is not data. You offended several of the college officials who frequent this board.



Then another longtime member was wrong about something". No big deal and no shame on him; it was from a rule set he doesn't use because he doesn't work women's college basketball. Rather than own it, he attempts several times to obfuscate it. Just own it and move on.



Here's all we needed to respond to the OP: Yes, this play needed a count, and the official erred in not doing so. It's possible his assigner doesn't want that called. No, this one example doesn't mean this is being widely ignored and several experienced members have assured you that they don't see it being ignored. Next time, don't try to paint with such a broad brush unless you can back it up.



We've got a great community here with so much experience and many levels. I hate when these discussions devolve into something like this.

Well stated. Many of our originally posted questions get off on wild tangent.


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Disagreed? Literally, true. Wrong? Literally, true. Those words were never posted.



This post (above) was in direct opposition to JetMetFan's post.

One post was in error. Maybe it should have been acknowledged by the poster as being incorrect, once said poster realized that he was wrong. That's what I, and many other Forum members would have done.

Funny you did not seem to read the post that said that Jet's post was clear and Jet is knowledgeable about women's college ball. And as stated again, you can find the dumbest references to other things but cannot look in the back of the rulebook on page 75 (2015-2016 Major Basketball Rules Differences) that states the difference, but you act ignit like you need our information on this site to know the answer. Actually the NF Rulebook only references women's basketball and does not even reference Men's rules on this issue as the closely guarded rule changed in Men's basketball.

But hey, you major in the minors. How about acknowledging you do not know how to look up this information? No, please don't because I honestly do not care what you say on the matter or admit. You are doing what you typically do.

Peace

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by nevadaref

what's clear is that you were flat out wrong. Now do you have the manhood to admit it for once in your life or will we be subject to more double-speak?

Originally Posted by jrutledge

why don't you come out here and see what real manhood is? Because all that crap you love to talk would get you run out of here. Don't believe me, ask your friend from that way. Something tells me they would eat you alive.

Peace

Originally Posted by nevadaref

notice there's still no admission from rut that he was dead wrong.
He's running his playbook: Dodge the question, change the topic, point a finger elsewhere, do anything to distract people from the fact at hand.

It is crystal clear that his ego just can't take it.

Originally Posted by jrutledge

there is nothing to admit dumbazz. I do not work women's college basketball.
How you like them apples. I don't have to like someone i know.

peace

Originally Posted by badnewsref

who really cares? Seriously.

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Originally Posted by jrutledge

he can talk to my patch.

peace

Originally Posted by okref

billy, he's never going to say he was wrong. Better to just leave it alone.

can't we all just get along?!?!?!