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[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Fools 'em every time. (Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86)



9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard and catches the ball. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

Thanks BigCat. (Of course it doesn't say what the player can legally do after he catches the ball, but it's still a pretty good "general purpose" citation.)

Now let's concentrate on these plays:



The more I think about it the more legal it becomes. His pivot foot never touches the floor after he becomes airborne. Am I correct that it's legal?

You can't pass the ball to yourself. Not sure why you're confusing this play with others plays you're giving.

It clearly says what the player can do after this. Think about it: A dribble picks up the dribble then throws it at something. Then is allowed to catch the ball again. It's basically the same as having a 6th man on the court for passing purposes. If the catch wasn't a travel then starting a dribble definitely isn't going to be traveling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Dad

It clearly says what the player can do after this. Think about it: A dribble picks up the dribble then throws it at something. Then is allowed to catch the ball again. It's basically the same as having a 6th man on the court for passing purposes. If the catch wasn't a travel then starting a dribble definitely isn't going to be traveling.

Travel? How about an illegal dribble?

Clear? The caseplay doesn't even state if the player moves his feet between the throw and the catch. How can that be clear? He can't travel if he doesn't move his feet. It's the same as a player standing, not moving his pivot foot, or either foot, and tossing the ball up in the air a couple of times, which has already been interpreted as a non-call. The catch was never a travel because he never moved his feet. Since this caseplay does not identify the throw as a shot, then the player can only legally begin a new dribble under a few circumstances:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Again, assuming it's not a shot (the caseplay doesn't call it a shot), has the ball touched an opponent; or was it a pass, or fumble, that was then touched by another player? We already know that you can't pass the ball to yourself (or your backboard, you can only pass to another player), so it wasn't a pass, plus it was never touched by another player. It was intentional so it wasn't a fumble, plus, again, it was never touched by another player. Did the ball ever touch an opponent?

Why wouldn't this be an illegal dribble?

Could it be that some interpret a ball thrown at the player's own backboard as always, automatically, being a shot? Where's the rule interpretation for that (NFHS)?

[deecee]

Billy how many other officials do you need to disagree with you before you accept an answer? The rule/case book doesn't cover every single possible scenario.

IF the player can legally catch the ball then what the heck do you think he/she can do afterwards with the ball?

In your case lets just say it's a shot and move on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

In your case lets just say it's a shot and move on.

If it's a shot, yes, he can dribble. Fine. Move on from there.

But what if it's not a shot?

What if any ball thrown by a player at his own basket is not always considered a shot?

In any case, the casebook play is not clear that the player can legally dribble the ball a second time. Maybe he can, but it certainly isn't clear.

If the caseplay is so clear, please explain to me how the player can legally dribble a second time if the throw is not a shot. If it's clear, it should be quite easy to explain. Right?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If it's a shot, yes, he can dribble. Fine. Move on from there.

But what if it's not a shot?

What if any ball thrown by a player at his own basket is not always considered a shot?

In any case, the casebook play is not clear that the player can legally dribble the ball a second time. Maybe he can, but it certainly isn't clear.

If the caseplay is so clear, please explain to me how the player can legally dribble a second time if the throw is not a shot. If it's clear, it should be quite easy to explain. Right?

If he couldn't legally catch it then it would be an illegal dribble. So since he can legally catch it he can do with the ball what any player can that has just gained initial possession.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

If he couldn't legally catch it then it would be an illegal dribble. So since he can legally catch it he can do with the ball what any player can that has just gained initial possession.

A stationary player holding the ball can always toss the ball up into the air and catch it several times without violating any rule. This caseplay simply adds that he can toss the ball off his own basket in the same manner without violating. It doesn't imply anything else.

Can a stationary player, after ending his dribble, holding the ball, toss the ball up into the air and catch it several times, and then legally start a new dribble? If not, then how do we allow a second dribble in the caseplay (assuming that the throw is not a shot)?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

If the player can legally catch the ball then what the heck do you think he/she can do afterwards with the ball?

Pass. Shoot. Request a timeout. All legal. But until I'm convinced otherwise, he can't dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Billy how many other officials do you need to disagree with you before you accept an answer?

We're not conducting a poll, we're using the rules, and casebook plays, and maybe annual interpretations, to correctly interpret a situation.

All it takes is one good citation to change my mind. That's all, one good citation.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

All it takes is one good citation to change my mind. That's all, one good citation.

Maybe my post was a bit confusing.

1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No? Why? Oh, why you ask. I got this.

Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard.

So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard. Well, what does a teams equipment mean? Find that out and you probably have all your answers.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Dad

1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No?
Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard..

Agree 100% with #2 above. Always have (by rule and caseplay).

Originally Posted by Dad

So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard.

Absolutely not:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Dad

Maybe my post was a bit confusing.

1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No? Why? Oh, why you ask. I got this.

Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard.

So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard. Well, what does a teams equipment mean? Find that out and you probably have all your answers.

He's not going to get it not matter how hard you try. Unless the exact thing he is looking for is spelled out in the rule/case book you will only go in circles. It's best to let this go.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Unless the exact thing he is looking for is spelled out in the rule/case book you will only go in circles. It's best to let this go.

The exact thing is spelled out in the rulebook:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe a page was accidentally ripped from my rulebook? Is there a fourth article to this rule that I don't know about? An exception? A note?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Travel? How about an illegal dribble? No. the case book says this is legal. No travel. No illegal dribble. We're legal here and have no whistle.

Clear? The caseplay doesn't even state if the player moves his feet between the throw and the catch.Because it doesn't need to. If the same act the player did was against the floor then it would be a violation by rule. Since you can pick up your dribble, throw the ball of the backboard, and then catch it without there being a violation... there's no reason to go into what isn't or is legal -- it just told you. Throwing the ball off the backboard is like throwing it off one of your own players. How can that be clear? He can't travel if he doesn't move his feet.Sure, but he can double dribble if he throws it at the floor and catches it. Backboard isn't there floor. It's like another player and the case book shows that with NOT calling something that would be a violation if it was off the floor. It's the same as a player standing, not moving his pivot foot, or either foot, and tossing the ball up in the air a couple of times, which has already been interpreted as a non-call.No it's not. The air we are breathing is not considered part of a players 'equipment' The catch was never a travel because he never moved his feet. Since this caseplay does not identify the throw as a shot, then the player can only legally begin a new dribble under a few circumstances:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Again, assuming it's not a shot (the caseplay doesn't call it a shot), has the ball touched an opponent; or was it a pass, or fumble, that was then touched by another player? We already know that you can't pass the ball to yourself (or your backboard, you can only pass to another player), so it wasn't a pass, plus it was never touched by another player. It was intentional so it wasn't a fumble, plus, again, it was never touched by another player. Did the ball ever touch an opponent? The case play says it hit the backboard and that's it. Then catching the ball is legal: not a double dribble. You're trying to add in irrelevant information that isn't in the play. It said exactly what happened. We don't need to figure out if someone touched the ball or not. Picks up dribble. Throws it off backboard. Catches ball. Legal. You're worrying about so much stuff that doesn't mean anything. If there's one, and only one, thing you should be worried about it's what is 'equipment'.

Why wouldn't this be an illegal dribble?Cause case play?

Could it be that some interpret a ball thrown at the player's own backboard as always, automatically, being a shot? Where's the rule interpretation for that (NFHS)?It doesn't say this anywhere. It does, however, a team's own backboard is their equipment.

The case says why. Your own backboard is a part of your equipment. As I said before, treat it like a 6th man and it'll all make perfect sense -- at least to me it does.

My replies are in bold.