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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 12:02am
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I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 12:29am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.
The travel rule in NCAA is almost identical and identical in practice as the NF rule. And the NCAA puts out videos often to show plays that should be called on a regular basis.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 12:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

Both feet on floor, player facing basket. Picks up left foot and places it back down, lifts right foot, and spins 360 degrees with left foot staying in contact with the floor and releases ball before right foot returns to floor. Is this what you are talking about? Legal.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 01:40am
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Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.
The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 02:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?
With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 03:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?
Not considering the cases of a player falling down or a player starting a dribble, travels ALWAYS occur when a foot comes back down....ALWAYS.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Right. In other words, you can only pivot on the pivot foot, and you only get one of those.

Here's a case book citation.


Therefore, if you pivot on a non-pivot foot, that's travelling. Where this typically applies in a spin move is that the ball handler pivots on his pivot foot, then pivots on the non-pivot foot.
Bainsey,

A player holding the ball picks up his left foot and right stays at point of contact on floor. The right foot becomes the PIVOT FOOT.

--The definition of pivot 4-33--player holding the ball STEPS once or more than once….with the same foot while the other foot called the "pivot foot" is kept at its point of contact with the floor. A player only has ONE pivot foot. The word STEPS (verb) is to lift foot and place it down.

So when the player lifts the left foot with the right remaining on the floor, the right is the pivot foot. When the player actually puts the left foot on the floor (a step) he has PIVOTED. Now the player lifts the right foot (PIVOT FOOT) and is standing on his left foot. That left foot is NOT a pivot foot. There is only one pivot foot, the right. Also, even if it were a pivot foot, it is not a pivot until the other foot hits the floor. Twisting on one foot while the other stays in the air is not, by definition, a pivot.

In my example the left foot..is just a foot. Player standing only on that foot must pass or shoot--can jump also but can't return either foot to floor. The PLAYER LOCATION rule says player is located where he is in contact with floor. The player can spin or twist on that left foot provided he remains in contact with floor at that location. If he starts twisting his way down the court on one leg he is doing more than passing or shooting.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 05:05pm
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Originally Posted by Dad View Post
With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.
That's not where my head was. Turning the pivot foot is fine. I had it in my head that turning the non-pivot foot was not, and that a pivot was a mere turn (more of a dictionary definition than rule book). I had the pivot rule only applying to the pivot foot.

Thanks for the heads up, crew.
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Last edited by bainsey; Mon Jan 11, 2016 at 05:08pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 11, 2016, 05:54pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.
Yep. It's tough to admit, but Bainey's good people.
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