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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 13, 2001, 06:47pm
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Could some of you college guys tell me why this isn't a travel?

A1 drives into the lane. He pulls up with his back to the basket, ends the dribble, steps with his left foot toward the basket, making the right foot the pivot. He then does a pivot spin on the left foot, steps with his right foot toward the basket, and shoots.

Big men also use this move in the low post block. Both feet are on the floor with their back to the basket. They step with the foot that's away from the basket, into the lane. That makes the other foot the pivot. Then they use the first foot as a pivot to spin on, and step with the legal pivot foot and complte the move with a jump shot or hook. Same play, just a little different beginning.

Are you guys told not to call this? I normally see it 3 to 5 times a game.

ISU and Mizzou are in their 4TH OT! Unbelievable!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 13th, 2001 at 09:27 PM]
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 13, 2001, 08:17pm
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Not in my area. I was watching high. etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Could some of you college guys tell me why this isn't a travel?

A1 drives into the lane. He pulls up with his back to the basket, ends the dribble, steps with his left foot toward the basket, making the right foot the pivot. He then does a pivot spin on the left foot, steps with his right foot toward the basket, and shoots.

Big men also use this move in the low post block. Both feet are on the floor with their back to the basket. They step with the foot that's away from the basket, into the lane. That makes the other foot the pivot. Then they use the first foot as a pivot to spin on, and step with the legal pivot foot and complte the move with a jump shot or hook. Same play, just a little different beginning.

Are you guys told not to call this? I normally see it 3 to 5 games a game.

ISU and Mizzou are in their 4TH OT! Unbelievable!
Tony,
They're breaking the rules, and the refs aren't looking.
I'll bet the opposing coaches see it though.
mick

#17 Wisconsin loses in OT to Mich State.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 04:18pm
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Maybe I am missing something, but from each of the cases described, it sounds like the player established a pivot foot, stepped with the other foot, lifted the pivot foot up and shot ... as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor and the player shoots or passes, the play is legal. The fact that the player spins/pivots on the non-pivot foot is irrelevant ... traveling hinges on restrictions on the pivot foot.
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 04:57pm
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Another thing to look at is the "gathering of the ball" if the ball isn't gathered untill the right foot is established than the left may be brought back down to the floor if on the other hand the ball is gathered using the left foot as the pivot then then if the player tries spinning on the right foot they may not bring the left down to the floor.

This move is an NBA move, and as we all know they still don't call travelling on any nice looking play.

keep smiling
SH
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 05:01pm
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yer absolutely correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
Maybe I am missing something, but from each of the cases described, it sounds like the player established a pivot foot, stepped with the other foot, lifted the pivot foot up and shot ... as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor and the player shoots or passes, the play is legal. The fact that the player spins/pivots on the non-pivot foot is irrelevant ... traveling hinges on restrictions on the pivot foot.
rp,
What you say is correct, and you are missing something.
mick
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 05:10pm
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Re: yer absolutely correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
Maybe I am missing something, but from each of the cases described, it sounds like the player established a pivot foot, stepped with the other foot, lifted the pivot foot up and shot ... as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor and the player shoots or passes, the play is legal. The fact that the player spins/pivots on the non-pivot foot is irrelevant ... traveling hinges on restrictions on the pivot foot.
rp,
What you say is correct, and you are missing something.
mick
OK, I'll bite ... what am I missing?
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 05:14pm
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Re: yer absolutely correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
Maybe I am missing something, but from each of the cases described, it sounds like the player established a pivot foot, stepped with the other foot, lifted the pivot foot up and shot ... as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor and the player shoots or passes, the play is legal. The fact that the player spins/pivots on the non-pivot foot is irrelevant ... traveling hinges on restrictions on the pivot foot.
rp,
What you say is correct, and you are missing something.
mick
...and on the gathering or control of the ball. !
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 05:26pm
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Re: Re: yer absolutely correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
Maybe I am missing something, but from each of the cases described, it sounds like the player established a pivot foot, stepped with the other foot, lifted the pivot foot up and shot ... as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor and the player shoots or passes, the play is legal. The fact that the player spins/pivots on the non-pivot foot is irrelevant ... traveling hinges on restrictions on the pivot foot.
rp,
What you say is correct, and you are missing something.
mick
OK, I'll bite ... what am I missing?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
Could some of you college guys tell me why this isn't a travel?

A1 drives into the lane. He pulls up with his back to the basket, ends the dribble, steps with his left foot toward the basket, making the right foot the pivot. He then does a pivot spin on the left foot, steps with his right foot toward the basket, and shoots.

Big men also use this move in the low post block. Both feet are on the floor with their back to the basket. They step with the foot that's away from the basket, into the lane. That makes the other foot the pivot. Then they use the first foot as a pivot to spin on, and step with the legal pivot foot and complte the move with a jump shot or hook. Same play, just a little different beginning.

Are you guys told not to call this? I normally see it 3 to 5 times a game.

When Tony said step, he did not mean Lift.

[Edited by mick on Jan 14th, 2001 at 04:32 PM]
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 06:28pm
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Re: Re: Re: yer absolutely correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by mick

When Tony said step, he did not mean Lift.
Exactly! Step, as in pick the foot up and place it on the floor again. In both plays, the offensive player has his back to the basket, ball in his hands with both feet on the floor. It's not a question of which foot is the pivot, or if the pivot is just being lifted. Lift and step, lift, spin, step, jump and shoot. This is traveling but it's not being called.

Look for it the next time you watch or work a game.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 07:40pm
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I have read this thread over a lot of times, and I, while being an inexperienced ref, have a lot of experience being a big guy in the middle. Isn't the player allowed the step toward the basket while shooting? Now if he does anything else, he gets nailed for the travel. Yes, this move is used a lot, and I mean A LOT. It is commonly a turn-around jumpshot, unless I am misunderstanding something, then please correct me. Thanks!
Matt
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 07:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MattRef
I have read this thread over a lot of times, and I, while being an inexperienced ref, have a lot of experience being a big guy in the middle. Isn't the player allowed the step toward the basket while shooting? Now if he does anything else, he gets nailed for the travel. Yes, this move is used a lot, and I mean A LOT. It is commonly a turn-around jumpshot, unless I am misunderstanding something, then please correct me. Thanks!
Matt
Tony was talking about using two Pivot feet and wondered if there was a college memo to allow that type of move in a college game.
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 08:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony was talking about using two Pivot feet and wondered if there was a college memo to allow that type of move in a college game. [/B]
Aha ... I get the picture now. Sorry it escaped me the first time that the pivot foot was returning to the floor. I was envisioning a different move. Thanks Mick.

Yep, that one gets passed on consistently. Like hoopsrefbc said, there is a fuzzy line as to when the player stops his/her dribble and establishes a pivot foot on that move. In slo-mo you can make a good arguement for traveling.
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Old Sun Jan 14, 2001, 09:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MattRef
Isn't the player allowed the step toward the basket while shooting?
Matt
Not with both feet. If the player simply turns and takes a jumpshot, he normally doesn't move the pivot foot and just pivots to that side. The play that I am referring to has a player with his back to the basket, both feet on the floor, basketball in hand. In this play, he steps with both feet. Two steps is traveling. Period.

Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall

Aha ... I get the picture now. Sorry it escaped me the first time that the pivot foot was returning to the floor. I was envisioning a different move. Thanks Mick.

Yep, that one gets passed on consistently. Like hoopsrefbc said, there is a fuzzy line as to when the player stops his/her dribble and establishes a pivot foot on that move. In slo-mo you can make a good arguement for traveling.]
While the guard who drives the lane may pick up his dribble at a troublesome time for the official, most post players don't dribble prior to moving. The NBA guys are the worst for making this move. I see it in collage now and trickling down to HS.
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Old Mon Jan 15, 2001, 12:03pm
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Question Thinking about all of this, Tony...

consider a lay-up. Assume I'm a right-handed player going in for a lay-up on the right side of the basket (right side, facing the basket). I end the dribble WHILE taking my step with the right foot. Since left foot is on the ground, isn't the left technically my pivot? Let's for argument's sake say "yes". I continue on the lay-up by completing my right-footed step, lift my pivot foot--my left foot--and COMPLETE a left-footed step. Now, I use my right foot to make that last thrust to the basket to attempt my lay-up. By rule, I've just traveled! But it's always passed on--and passed on by me.

Sitch #2. Player A2 is on the wing. A1 passes to A2 who steps in (or is stepping in) with his left foot. A2 steps up with his right foot and plants it on the ground as he begins to go up for a jumpshot. A2 shoots the ball. This is another travel BY RULE that always seems to get passed on--and passed on by me.

Comments?
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Old Mon Jan 15, 2001, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Indy_Ref
consider a lay-up. Assume I'm a right-handed player going in for a lay-up on the right side of the basket (right side, facing the basket). I end the dribble WHILE taking my step with the right foot. Since left foot is on the ground, isn't the left technically my pivot? Let's for argument's sake say "yes". I continue on the lay-up by completing my right-footed step, lift my pivot foot--my left foot--and COMPLETE a left-footed step. Now, I use my right foot to make that last thrust to the basket to attempt my lay-up. By rule, I've just traveled! But it's always passed on--and passed on by me.
Normally, a player will end the dribble as he strides with one foot, which becomes the pivot, and then he'll step with the second foot. When the second foot steps, the pivot foot leaves the floor. The shot is released before the pivot returns to the floor. This is perfectly legal.

Quote:
Sitch #2. Player A2 is on the wing. A1 passes to A2 who steps in (or is stepping in) with his left foot. A2 steps up with his right foot and plants it on the ground as he begins to go up for a jumpshot. A2 shoots the ball. This is another travel BY RULE that always seems to get passed on--and passed on by me.
This isn't traveling. A2 has only taken one step. The left foot becomes the pivot. He steps with the right foot. When the player leaves the floor, he is still legal as long as the shot is released prior returning the pivot to the floor.

In the play that I'm talking about, A1 has both feet on the floor, ball in his hands, back to the basket. What has happened prior to this point is of no consequence. Let's say he's right handed. He steps with his left foot, establishing his right foot as his pivot. He then lifts the right foot and spins his body. He places the right foot backl on the floor, now facing the basket. He jumps and shoots. That's traveling but it's not being called.

It's no different than a player in the same sitch who is facing the basket. A1 has both feet on the floor, ball in his hands, facing the basket. He steps with his left foot, establishing his right foot as his pivot. Then he steps with his right foot. Two steps! Traveling! Same play except one is facing the basket, the other is not.
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