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bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:19am

Spin move
 
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

packersowner Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

I am confused on what you are trying to say. You can do a lot of things when you lift your pivot.....is that your point?

MechanicGuy Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

Assuming the lifting of the pivot foot isn't followed by a dribble, you can do whatever you want with it

Assuming you accurately described the play, I'm thinking the call was missed.

JetMetFan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:54am

Maybe I'm missing something but the way this is described (remove the spin part of things): the dribble ended with the pivot foot on the floor, the other foot came down, the pivot foot was lifted but never came down again...that's legal.

As to this comment...

Quote:

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot,"
...if the rule book doesn't say a player can't do it, why can't they?

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 975950)
I am confused on what you are trying to say. You can do a lot of things when you lift your pivot.....is that your point?

Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

MechanicGuy Sun Jan 10, 2016 01:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

Because you can?

It sounds like you need to separate the term "pivot foot" and the act of "pivoting" in your own mind. They aren't necessarily related.

Camron Rust Sun Jan 10, 2016 01:45am

I've seen many officials think it is a pivot to lift a foot and swing it around before it touches. As a result, I hear calls for travels and see a few officials call travels when it is not (yet). It isn't a pivot until the lifted foot touches again.

deecee Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

because you can. the rule doesn't prohibit this, the rule prohibits the original pivot foot from being returned to the floor before the ball is passed or shot.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 975959)
It isn't a pivot until the lifted foot touches again.

I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

bob jenkins Sun Jan 10, 2016 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

4-travel contains multiple references to "the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor (before a pass or shot)."

Sorry, I don't have the books here to give an exact cite.

Aldo, when the rule says "traveling is moving the pivot foot" "move" means step or slide -- id doesn't mean "wave around in the air."

BryanV21 Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:45pm

Some are making it more complicated than it needs to be. Actually, it's not complicated.

1. Find the pivot foot, keeping in mind there is only one pivot foot There's no such thing as the "first" and "second" pivot foot (at least not in high school).

2. If the pivot foot is lifted, the player is allowed to shoot or pass the ball. They can not start a dribble or return the pivot foot to the floor (if so, a travel violation has occurred).

That's it. The way I read the OP tells me there was no traveling violation. I don't care what the coach says, I only care what the rule book says.

VaTerp Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Why does it matter what he did with his "non-pivot foot." Add me to the group that does not think what is descibed here is a travel.

Quote:

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?
I'm confused. What point are people missing? What limits are you referencing as clear?

BillyMac Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:36pm

Legal ...
 
Imagine a dribbler ending his dribble, and establishing a pivot foot. He picks up that pivot foot to pass, or to shoot, and while said pivot foot is in the air, decides to do neither. He just stands there with his nonpivot foot on the floor, and his pivot foot in the air, holding the ball. If not closely guarded, or not in the backcourt, or not in the lane, he can stand there, legally, like a statue, for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds.

frezer11 Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:39pm

I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet." This meets the non-basketball definition of pivot, but is confused with the basketball term "pivot foot." Seems to me this is a discussion that has been had on this forum before, I know I've had the talk with others in my area. Am I correct in assuming this is where your confusion is bainsey?

Camron Rust Sun Jan 10, 2016 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?


Rule 4, Section 33:
Quote:

A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor.


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