Coach appears to headbutt official

[deecee]

I'm sick of all the BS excuses by folks (on here and in general) for piss poor behavior by players and coaches while the officials are expected to walk on water. Let's call it what it is. Sad, sorry, and old. I may unload on a coach if they headbutted me and made me felt threatened. I'm sure then the coach would be forgiven, I would be put in jail for 10 years and he would get a book deal.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by tnolan

i'm aware.
and i've already said that if the Lead doesn't get the T first, then either of the other 2 should definitely have it.

what i was alluding to though, hypothetically, if the coach doesn't "headbutt" the Trail, are we even talking about him coming in aggressively?

I see. You're probably right.

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I see. You're probably right.

and maybe Smitty has something there...
maybe Trail is rushing in to act as a buffer between the coach and Lead?
maybe Trail believes that he had given Lead enough time to have first crack at giving the coach a T, and that it was his time to step in?
no one will know but Trail.

but like i said earlier....i don't put blame on Trail for coming in quick. and it's definitely unfortunate that he had to be the "victim" of a moron head coach, but i believe if his only intention was to T the coach up, and not act as a buffer, he could've called the T from 10 feet away. jus' sayin'

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm sick of all the BS excuses by folks (on here and in general) for piss poor behavior by players and coaches while the officials are expected to walk on water. Let's call it what it is. Sad, sorry, and old. I may unload on a coach if they headbutted me and made me felt threatened. I'm sure then the coach would be forgiven, I would be put in jail for 10 years and he would get a book deal.

The official could have called him all kinds of names and still IMO did not warrant the reaction from the coach. If we started swinging on everyone that said something bad to us, none of us would be without a criminal record. If we can restrain ourselves every game and multiple times, I think a coach can walk away because he got a T, not a ticket, not a fine, just a procedural act in a game that at best gives the other team the ball and some points. Nothing that took place was out of line or over the top by the official.

Peace

[Altor]

Unless you all have seen a video that I've missed, I don't know how you can make a determination that the T came too quickly. We don't see the coach until he is well out onto the court, and we don't see the T until after that. We have no idea how far either of them came to get to that point.

Additionally, the L's head was turned to the players to get the number for the foul. When he finally saw the coach, his whistle was immediately going back into his mouth until the T put air in his.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The official could have called him all kinds of names and still IMO did not warrant the reaction from the coach. If we started swinging on everyone that said something bad to us, none of us would be without a criminal record. If we can restrain ourselves every game and multiple times, I think a coach can walk away because he got a T, not a ticket, not a fine, just a procedural act in a game that at best gives the other team the ball and some points. Nothing that took place was out of line or over the top by the official.

Peace

Good post, and I agree. This coach can go sit on a road spike.

[BigT]

http://6abc.com/sports/new-video-sho...feree/1147894/

The referee said his head made contact with his head. Glad he reacted so it was very minor head contact.

This guy works with kids with special needs? Wow not the type of character I see working with those kids.

[BigT]

I was slapped on the shoulder by coach who was upset with me and took a cheap shot. I regret not calling the police.

It sounds like this guy didnt press charges and I think that is a huge mistake.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

Secondary defender, play's in the lane. This belongs 100% to the L.

There is no such animal as a "secondary defender" in NFHS Basketball Rules (Remember: The reason the LGP rule is written as it is, is because the Player in control of the Ball should expect to be guarded from the instant that he/she gains PC until he/she is not longer in PC.).

I don't have a problem with a double whistle (C and L) on this play. And from where A1 started his drive down the lane I would expect that C would have the best look at the whole play. But, from the video, it appeared that C was not very engaged in officiating the play. He did not close down on the drive to get a good look at the play and instead took the "Leaning Tower of Pizza" approach to look around a couple of players that were between him and the play, and never had a whistle on the play. Once the L made the call he seemed to not even be interested in keeping a foot in the bucket to be in the proper position in case Team A pressed when Team B inbounded the Ball on the End Line after the PCF.

And as much as I love calling a charge (And I do resemble the L in the video: short, stout, and bald, .), if I were the L in this play and the C also had a whistle, I would have defered to the C.

Even after the assault by the HC he was very slow moving in getting to point of the confrontation. I have not watched the whole game but in the snippet of video I did watch of the play he just seemed like he did not want to be on the court. His body language just did not look good.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Mark is right there is no secondary defender in the NF rules. But also we overuse that term IMO as I can see a secondary defender as an outside official if the play is in the lane. In some cases, the secondary defender is more clearly seen by the C or T as they saw where they came from, unobstructed.

I totally disagree that someone other than the L cannot call a foul on a secondary defender when they see the play the entire way. The secondary defender is only involved in the NCAA (Men's) if the defender is in the Restricted Area. Outside of that, the secondary defender is not a factor in a call in the lane other than if there is a double whistle who gets the call. I have talked with many that modify that based on the play or situation.

Peacer

[Welpe]

I find it incredibly disappointing that there are more than a few of our own officials that want to pin some part of the blame on the official for getting headbutted (and he did get headbutted per at least two of the videos I've seen).

It's one thing how to discuss the best way to handle unusual situations but an official NEVER deserves to be assaulted/battered for doing his job. We already have enough non-officials that think we deserve it, no need to help them out by doing it to ourselves.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There is no such animal as a "secondary defender" in NFHS Basketball Rules (Remember: The reason the LGP rule is written as it is, is because the Player in control of the Ball should expect to be guarded from the instant that he/she gains PC until he/she is not longer in PC.).

I don't have a problem with a double whistle (C and L) on this play. And from where A1 started his drive down the lane I would expect that C would have the best look at the whole play. But, from the video, it appeared that C was not very engaged in officiating the play. He did not close down on the drive to get a good look at the play and instead took the "Leaning Tower of Pizza" approach to look around a couple of players that were between him and the play, and never had a whistle on the play. Once the L made the call he seemed to not even be interested in keeping a foot in the bucket to be in the proper position in case Team A pressed when Team B inbounded the Ball on the End Line after the PCF.

And as much as I love calling a charge (And I do resemble the L in the video: short, stout, and bald, .), if I were the L in this play and the C also had a whistle, I would have defered to the C.

Even after the assault by the HC he was very slow moving in getting to point of the confrontation. I have not watched the whole game but in the snippet of video I did watch of the play he just seemed like he did not want to be on the court. His body language just did not look good.

MTD, Sr.

Who cares what it says in the rules book? Terms that teach people how to officiate don't have to appear in a rules book.

Whose primary is the person who got hit in the *entire* time? How is an outside person supposed to pick that person up and judge if he establishes and maintains legal guarding position?

This play isn't even close -- it's an obvious block.

[packersowner]

OTHER OBSERVATIONS FROM THIS GAME

So I went back to about the 1 hour 29 minute mark of this game to see what led up to some of this which is always hard from just a video, but there are a few observations that I believe are good reminders for us all.

1. There is an earlier block/charge call where a block was called, very similar but called differently than what led up to this play.

2. There is a tie up between two players at mid-court and then again in the back court, no call was made, but coaches were upset at this.

3. Then we have a 3 made by white, followed by a foul by white. White whacks the ball after it (the announcers make the comment, that a technical could have been called).

4. Official notifies white coach of 5th foul, white coach is standing about 10 feet out on the court during the replacement period.

5. Then after the 5th foul but before the head butt, you see a white player just casually standing next to the table, why is the bench personnel standing at this point?

Then the head butt......I have these questions.

1. Why does the 3rd official run in leave the middle of the court where most of the players are standing? What if a fight had broken out on the court?

2. Why is the orange player allowed to linger by white's bench after the technicals. His teammate actually comes in to clear him out.

3. After the two technicals, why is the majority of the white bench still standing?


Listen don't take this the wrong way, in the moment there is a lot is going on, but I think they are lucky this didn't escalate even further.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by packersowner

OTHER OBSERVATIONS FROM THIS GAME

So I went back to about the 1 hour 29 minute mark of this game to see what led up to some of this which is always hard from just a video, but there are a few observations that I believe are good reminders for us all.

1. There is an earlier block/charge call where a block was called, very similar but called differently than what led up to this play.

You know, I couldn't possibly give a crap about this.

Every play is a snowflake --I'm not going to kick the shit out of one just so it looks like we "call it the same at both ends."

I think the play before the head butt was a pretty obvious block. Let's say that the same play was incorrectly called a charge at the other end -- the whole notion that I should just kick one to high heaven in the name of consistency is just appalling to me.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I find it incredibly disappointing that there are more than a few of our own officials that want to pin some part of the blame on the official for getting headbutted (and he did get headbutted per at least two of the videos I've seen).

It's one thing how to discuss the best way to handle unusual situations but an official NEVER deserves to be assaulted/battered for doing his job. We already have enough non-officials that think we deserve it, no need to help them out by doing it to ourselves.

No one on here has remotely suggested that the official deserved it or that the coach was way out of line regardless of what preceded it. But, for heaven's sake, this is a place for referees to discuss how to be effective, not just to bash moron coaches (even when they deserve it). Discussing what the referee(s) could have done differently to make the escalation less likely is an important aspect for referees to improve. Don't misread that as anyone trying to exonerate the moron coach in this case.