Swinging elbow contact (video)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'm not making anything up. Watch the video. There is an easy jump ball/swinging elbows situation where you can call either.

There's an elbow swing. A jump. An elbow swing. A jump. WACK a face shot. I'm not clipping another obvious video to make my point. Go to youtube and slow it down if it's too fast for you.

Please research wack versus whack.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

His initial signal should have been a PC foul and then go up from there after a chat with his partner.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you think something is an Intentional foul, it isn't a PC at all and the PC signal would actually also be incorrect. I go straight to the X signal if i think something is an IF. I don't have a problem upgrading if I've gone only PC first if a partner gives me more info but I see no reason to go with a PC signal initially on this.

My mistake. I should have written the L's initial signal should have been a fist in the air. After that the crew can get together and discuss.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

I agree, but with other factors it does -- shooter. I'm not calling a jump here, but if the official isn't going to call a violation then I'm okay with a jump. Anything to stop this kind of play from continuing.

Not the first time you've posted something from the MSU manual.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not the first time you've posted something from the MSU manual.

How is violently swinging elbows not undue roughness?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

How is violently swinging elbows not undue roughness?

Not questioning that. It's the pull a held ball out of thin air quote.

My thoughts:

Stupid unnecessary 25 second intro. Wtf.

No way that can be a held ball. I see three cleanup fouls that could have been called which probably (except for the last one) prevent the elbow. For me you get one crack at getting the ball....any more and it's a foul. Especially in girls games.

Shot clock guy is 2 seconds slow resetting on the rebound. Probably par for the HS shot clock course.

INT for me, but it's close. Haven't seen a lot of video on the difference between INT and Flagrant at the HS level, for me could depend on game/player situation.

[Rich]

I agree with those who say a held ball is a cop out.

I run into a lot of officials who think a quick held ball is a tool to prevent rough play. I think it's a tool to prevent having to officiate.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

My thoughts:

Stupid unnecessary 25 second intro. Wtf.

No way that can be a held ball. I see three cleanup fouls that could have been called which probably (except for the last one) prevent the elbow. For me you get one crack at getting the ball....any more and it's a foul. Especially in girls games.

Shot clock guy is 2 seconds slow resetting on the rebound. Probably par for the HS shot clock course.

INT for me, but it's close. Haven't seen a lot of video on the difference between INT and Flagrant at the HS level, for me could depend on game/player situation.

I agree, if we get the fouls first the elbow never gets thrown, and if it does it's easy to adjudicate since it's dead ball. Pretty easy intentional for the elbow, and I wouldn't be upset if it was called flagrant.

[Raymond]

Someone saw a foul by the defense from this camera angle?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Rich

I agree with those who say a held ball is a cop out.

I run into a lot of officials who think a quick held ball is a tool to prevent rough play. I think it's a tool to prevent having to officiate.

I'll agree it's a cop out, but in my mind I'm ranking it like this:

1) Violation - good call
2) jump ball - bleh
3) no call - terrible.

I'm in no way advocating quick held ball calls to prevent rough play. I'm trying to point out the rough play is already occurring in this play. There's nothing to prevent, but there is something to stop.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

I'll agree it's a cop out, but in my mind I'm ranking it like this:

1) Violation - good call
2) jump ball - bleh
3) no call - terrible.

I'm in no way advocating quick held ball calls to prevent rough play. I'm trying to point out the rough play is already occurring in this play. There's nothing to prevent, but there is something to stop.

2, and 3 didn't happen here. There wasn't a no call, could there have been a whistle for a violation, yes,but the official didn't get that. He did give a technical when an intentional foul was more correct. What he didn't do was make something up like a held ball, which frankly speaks volumes about you. There really isn't rough play going on until she connects with the elbow, followed by a whistle.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Someone saw a foul by the defense from this camera angle?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

There could be one, just before the elbow landed. However I think even if you blow the whistle at that moment the elbow will still get thrown and connect.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

2, and 3 didn't happen here. There wasn't a no call, could there have been a whistle for a violation, yes,but the official didn't get that. He did give a technical when an intentional foul was more correct. What he didn't do was make something up like a held ball, which frankly speaks volumes about you. There really isn't rough play going on until she connects with the elbow, followed by a whistle.

There really isn't or there isn't?
There wasn't a no call but something could've been called?
He gave a technical when he should have given an intentional foul... more correct, or correct because one isn't?
I wasn't there to make a "made up" call. I did watch a bad video of a play and make a decision about it.

Could I be wrong? Sure, it's looked like it thus far. Does it speak volumes about me?

This post is typical quality for you. If you're going to make statements at least pick a side and back things up with rules/facts. Regurgitated opinions is what I expect from bad coaches.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

No way that can be a held ball. I see three cleanup fouls that could have been called which probably (except for the last one) prevent the elbow.

I can't see cleanup fouls here. Green #21 came out swinging (her body, at least) from the moment she grabbed the rebound. If there was a whistle against either player in White closest to the BH/D, that's not fair to either of them.

Originally Posted by Dad

I'll agree it's a cop out, but in my mind I'm ranking it like this:

1) Violation - good call
2) jump ball - bleh
3) no call - terrible.

I'm in no way advocating quick held ball calls to prevent rough play. I'm trying to point out the rough play is already occurring in this play. There's nothing to prevent, but there is something to stop.

If there's something to stop then stop it according to what happened. Your 2nd and 3rd options shouldn't even be on the menu. Green #21 was swinging her elbows. That's a violation. If that isn't called, get the foul - IF or FF - once contact takes place.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I can't see cleanup fouls here. Green #21 came out swinging (her body, at least) from the moment she grabbed the rebound. If there was a whistle against either player in White closest to the BH/D, that's not fair to either of them.




If there's something to stop then stop it according to what happened. Your 2nd and 3rd options shouldn't even be on the menu. Green #21 was swinging her elbows. That's a violation. If that isn't called, get the foul - IF or FF - once contact takes place.