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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:13pm
rfp rfp is offline
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Excessive Elbow Swinging violation

BV last night. A1 several times after a rebound dangerously swung his elbows to clear some room. He never contacted anyone but was clearly sending a message. I've never called this violation in my career - in fact, I've never even seen it called, but if there was ever a time, this would have been it. I passed on it.

Opponents got a little riled because of the tone of A1's "message" and we kept a close eye on A1 and opponents guarding him thereafter. A couple of quick fouls on both A1 and B right afterward kept things in check. But I didn't feel good about it.

So what do you think about the excessive elbow swinging violation? Ever call it? If yes, how come it's so rarely seen (at least by me)? What other tools can I use to deal with this situation more effectively in the future?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:16pm
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I have called it once or twice, I believe. Your case sounds like a perfect example of when to make this call.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:17pm
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I call it every time I see it. He's doing it because he's never been called for it, or rarely anyway.

Now, nothing says a player can't square up and chin the ball as he pivots. I look at whether his elbows move faster than his waist; it's a rule of thumb, as well as his face to guage his intent.

It's a dangerous play and should be called. They downgraded this from a tech so we'd call it more. From the sounds of your situation, calling it the first time would have prevented him from doing it again; and it would have kept the opponents off your back (if I was the coach, I'd have wondered why you weren't calling it.)

One thing I hate, though, when I call it the offender's coach invariably asks me to "get them off of him."
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:19pm
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Why the reluctance to call this? I'm a new official, but it seems to me that if it's in the rules and you see it you would call it. I don't mean to be critical, but calling it as a violation might prevent an injury down the road. Might even get the coaches attention, after all there is a proper way to create space after a rebound is secured, and clearly an improper way as well. A couple of turnovers will get the coaches attention.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:20pm
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What signal would yall give? The exessive signal used for a foul?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDurham View Post
What signal would yall give? The exessive signal used for a foul?

It's in the book.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:38pm
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by ref3808 View Post
I'm a new official, but it seems to me that if it's in the rules and you see it you would call it.
You mean we should call fouls and violations when we see them? What a novel idea! I'd work with you anytime, buddy.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 03:41pm
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elbows is bad

Do you really want to wait until there are blood and teeth on the floor?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 04:14pm
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Freudian Officiating

To an extent, you and I are in the behavior modification business. Those violations and fouls that occur which you and I do not call serve to encourage that particular behavior.
Some may claim there's a fine line between this and over-officiating, which I detest, but that's for another thread another time.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
You mean we should call fouls and violations when we see them? What a novel idea! I'd work with you anytime, buddy.
Yeah, but would he work with you?
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 04:43pm
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I call this violation more than most, anything close to the rule I'm blowing my whistle. I have caught some heat from coaches in the past but I always come back to the safety issue, and I feel its a cheap way to try and play basketball!!
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 04:51pm
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I agree with the others - nip it in the bud! This is dangerous behavior and needs to be stopped.

As Snaq said, the whole reason they changed it from a T to a violation is so it would be called.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 05:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
You mean we should call fouls and violations when we see them? What a novel idea! I'd work with you anytime, buddy.
I'd be pleased to work with you anytime Mark.
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Old Thu Jan 21, 2010, 07:05pm
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I'd be pleased to work with you anytime Mark.
Thanks. I'll even give you a discount on the fee I usually charge.
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Old Fri Jan 22, 2010, 12:59am
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I actually had to make this call tonight. Needless to say, coach wasn't happen. Also had to clarify to the table that it was a violation and not a foul.
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