Points off the board??

[Welpe]

The rule is that "no opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." This is why I said it was a stretch.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Right, but if blown dead before rebounding, go to POI, not another shot. It will be ugly. Better hope she makes it, like what I saw last week.

You're turning a table goof into an official completely mucking up the entire play. I'm guessing there was no pregame with the table about when to and when not to sound the buzzer. You would never blow you're whistle right after as an official and screw up the play by going to the AP arrow.

[bob jenkins]

If the official can be quick enough to blow the whistle while the ball is still in the player's hand(s), then the player gets a "replacement" shot either way.

[BryanV21]

Trying this without my Rule Book, which is dangerous. Here goes...

A common time when the horn does not nullify a point(s) being scored is when a last second shot is attempted before the horn goes off. However, should the horn sound before the shot is attempted, the try is waved off.

So can we apply this to the free throw?

The free throw attempt is not a try for goal until the ball is released, therefore if the horn sounds before the free thrower releases the ball we should wave off the try for goal (free throw).

If we can apply that here, the official should've whistled the play dead when the horn sounded, since it was before the free throw try. The result of the try, should the free thrower release it anyway, doesn't count either way. Then find out why the horn was sounded, fix the situation (in this case remove the DQd player), and then re-start from the POI (the first free throw).

I'm going to take a deep breathe and prepare for the backlash.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Trying this without my Rule Book, which is dangerous. Here goes...

A common time when the horn does not nullify a point(s) being scored is when a last second shot is attempted before the horn goes off. However, should the horn sound before the shot is attempted, the try is waved off.

So can we apply this to the free throw?

The free throw attempt is not a try for goal until the ball is released, therefore if the horn sounds before the free thrower releases the ball we should wave off the try for goal (free throw).

If we can apply that here, the official should've whistled the play dead when the horn sounded, since it was before the free throw try. The result of the try, should the free thrower release it anyway, doesn't count either way. Then find out why the horn was sounded, fix the situation (in this case remove the DQd player), and then re-start from the POI (the first free throw).

I'm going to take a deep breathe and prepare for the backlash.

End of a quarter, regulation, OT, etc isn't the same thing as this scenario. That rule doesn't apply.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ODog

Agreed.

Allow me to ask Hartsy's followup question: What if she missed?

I would just readminister after we replaced the DQd player. Thoughts?

If the horn was sounded as she was shooting, then the R could invoke 2-3 and allow a replacement FT due to her being disturbed by the table crew.

If the ball had already been released when the horn sounded and she misses the shot, then the proper ruling is to use the AP arrow to award possession following the substitution, if the officials stopped play and recognized the horn. If the officials elect to ignore the horn, then play should continue until the ball is in the control of the team with the player having five fouls. At that point the scorer should sound the horn and play should be halted to DQ this player.

We had another thread on this just last week.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the ball had already been released when the horn sounded ...

Not the scenario.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the officials elect to ignore the horn, then play should continue until the ball is in the control of the team with the player having five fouls. At that point the scorer should sound the horn and play should be halted to DQ this player.

This solution makes no sense. If you know that there is a player on the court with 5 fouls that should have been DQed, why not stop play immediately and DQ them? Are you really going to allow them to play defense? What if they are the tallest player on the court, and end up blocking a potential game winning shot, when they shouldn't have even been on the court?

About the only reason I would delay a whistle to take care of the DQ is if the other team has the ball and is headed down on a fast break for an uncontested layup. Otherwise, I'm blowing it dead when I realize it, no matter which team has the ball, and making the replacement to get the player with 5 fouls out of the game.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

This solution makes no sense. If you know that there is a player on the court with 5 fouls that should have been DQed, why not stop play immediately and DQ them? Are you really going to allow them to play defense? What if they are the tallest player on the court, and end up blocking a potential game winning shot, when they shouldn't have even been on the court?

About the only reason I would delay a whistle to take care of the DQ is if the other team has the ball and is headed down on a fast break for an uncontested layup. Otherwise, I'm blowing it dead when I realize it, no matter which team has the ball, and making the replacement to get the player with 5 fouls out of the game.

The rule is that the scorer/timer should not sound the horn to call attention to a player illegally in the game until the ball is in possession of that player's team. If the scorer sounds the horn while the ball is live, officials are to ignore it if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise the official can stop play to see why the horn was blown etc. Most times the officials will stop play to see what the scorer/timer's issue is...In Nevada's hypo, the officials who ignored the horn likely didn't know it was the player's 5th foul. If they do realize its the player's 5th foul they should kill it unless there is an immediate scoring play in progress.

note also--if the free throw is missed, horn sounds but doesnt affect players rebounding, i will hold the whistle until the rebound is secured. then see what the horn was about-unless scoring play in progress. i may not kill it right after the horn sounds. if you do there's no team control and you have to go to the arrow as Nevada says. depends on the situation.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BigCat

note also--if the free throw is missed, horn sounds but doesnt affect players rebounding, i will hold the whistle until the rebound is secured. then see what the horn was about-unless scoring play in progress. i may not kill it right after the horn sounds. if you do there's no team control and you have to go to the arrow as Nevada says. depends on the situation.

Are you saying if it doesn't affect players rebounding? Because I think it almost certainly would. I would much rather blow it dead and have to go to the AP arrow then deal with having to explain to a coach who's players didn't react in the confusion and have now lost possession of the ball. (Especially if a teammate of the free thrower rebounded and had a quick uncontested put back!)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Are you saying if it doesn't affect players rebounding? Because I think it almost certainly would. I would much rather blow it dead and have to go to the AP arrow then deal with having to explain to a coach who's players didn't react in the confusion and have now lost possession of the ball. (Especially if a teammate of the free thrower rebounded and had a quick uncontested put back!)

He said he'd blow the whistle after the rebound. If he saw no defensive players move then he could adapt accordingly.

On another note, I really doubt players are going to just give up after hearing the horn; especially if it's not an end of quarter/extra period situation.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Are you saying if it doesn't affect players rebounding? Because I think it almost certainly would. I would much rather blow it dead and have to go to the AP arrow then deal with having to explain to a coach who's players didn't react in the confusion and have now lost possession of the ball. (Especially if a teammate of the free thrower rebounded and had a quick uncontested put back!)

If there's any confusion we have to kill it. If horn blows later it may not have an effect on who would get rebound. Inside guy may already have position and ball coming right to him. As I said, depends on situation-what I see-how players react. Most of the time it does have an effect. I am going to assess situation rather than just blow whistle cause horn blows. Thx

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Dad

He said he'd blow the whistle after the rebound. If he saw no defensive players move then he could adapt accordingly.

On another note, I really doubt players are going to just give up after hearing the horn; especially if it's not an end of quarter/extra period situation.

I disagree. I think that most of the time, when the horn goes off, MOST players stop, because most of them don't realize that it's the WHISTLE that matters, and not the HORN.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree. I think that most of the time, when the horn goes off, MOST players stop, because most of them don't realize that it's the WHISTLE that matters, and not the HORN.

Maybe in the land of bad coaches. No way I'm buying this at any kind of decent level.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Dad

Maybe in the land of bad coaches. No way I'm buying this at any kind of decent level.

Do you really think most coaches specifically cover that?? I know most coaches will preach 'play till the whistle...' or something similar, but I seriously doubt they also say, "Oh and hey, everyone listen up. In case the horn goes off, and you're pretty sure it's not the end of the quarter, then it's likely an error by the timer, and you should keep playing because only the official's whistle officially stops play..."