post play

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dad

Has to be an extended arm bar for an automatic foul. Wording was changed to make sure we apply post play to the rule.

10-6 ART. 12

The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position

b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.

And what does "extended" mean to everyone? I don't think everyone defines that the same.

To me, if the elbow is away from the body with the forearm on the opponent, it is extended....and becomes a foul if the opponent has the ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And what does "extended" mean to everyone? I don't think everyone defines that the same.

To me, if the elbow is away from the body with the forearm on the opponent, it is extended....and becomes a foul if the opponent has the ball.

Agreed -- but I think we also need to emphasize "placing" as an intentional act (as opposed to merely "having" or "protecting")

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed -- but I think we also need to emphasize "placing" as an intentional act (as opposed to merely "having" or "protecting")

Does it matter?'

If they have it up and the opponent moves into to, I give them a moment to retract it but they can't keep it there any more than they can stick an arm out to the side to restrict movement.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Does it matter?'

If they have it up and the opponent moves into to, I give them a moment to retract it but they can't keep it there any more than they can stick an arm out to the side to restrict movement.

Agree.

OP said wasn't extended so I left it up to his judgement.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Does it matter?'

I think so.

If the defense moves into the offense, then I use RSBQ to make any call.

If the offense "places" one of the four absolutes on the defense, then it's a foul without regard to RSBQ.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think so.

If the defense moves into the offense, then I use RSBQ to make any call.

If the offense "places" one of the four absolutes on the defense, then it's a foul without regard to RSBQ.

If the defender has the arm up in the form of an arm bar, but short of contact and the offensive player backs into it, do you consider that "placing" if they don't drop it?

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the defender has the arm up in the form of an arm bar, but short of contact and the offensive player backs into it, do you consider that "placing" if they don't drop it?

If I understand the rules correctly: Almost all touching of a ball handler is now a foul. Seems the consensus is that the game has gotten too rough; so calling LOTS of fouls is an attempt to return basketball to a finesse game again.
Though all my games thus far are going longer - I do like the emphasis on freedom of movement.
I'm hearing from assignors: 40 plus fouls a game is our new norm; coaches want and expect more fouls!
Whether this generation of players will adjust... that's another story!

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

If I understand the rules correctly: Almost all touching of a ball handler is now a foul. Seems the consensus is that the game has gotten too rough; so calling LOTS of fouls is an attempt to return basketball to a finesse game again.
Though all my games thus far are going longer - I do like the emphasis on freedom of movement.
I'm hearing from assignors: 40 plus fouls a game is our new norm; coaches want and expect more fouls!
Whether this generation of players will adjust... that's another story!

Hasn't been much of an issue from what I've seen. After one game I have yet to see a team continue to be foul happy.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the defender has the arm up in the form of an arm bar, but short of contact and the offensive player backs into it, do you consider that "placing" if they don't drop it?

This is from NCAAW, but I think it would apply to HS as well:

This season, the rules committee revised the guidelines for determining legal and illegal contact on a post player in control of the ball in the lane area with her back to the basket. The new guidelines state that in this situation, the defensive post player “may place a forearm or one hand on the
offensive player”. Additionally, in this same scenario, it is illegal for the defensive player to contact the offensive post player with her body, leg or knee.

It is important to remember that, in either case, it is the defensive player who initiates the contact with the offensive player. If an offensive post player with the ball causes contact with the defensive post player and the contact is with non-permitted body parts, this is not a foul on the defensive
player. Also, a defensive post player is never required to vacate a legally established position because of the movement of an offensive player (Rule 4-18.3).

Officials have to know which player initiated the contact. When the defensive player places body
parts in excess of what is permitted on the offensive post player with the ball, a foul shall be called on the defensive player. When the offensive post player causes contact with the defender and this
contact is incidental, a foul shall not be charged to the defender; when this contact is illegal, a player-control foul shall be charged to the off

[JetMetFan]

Here's what's in the NFHS Rule book this season regarding post play:

1. POST PLAY

New information has been added to the Rule Book that addresses cleaning up post play.

It is legal for offensive and defensive players to touch when both are maintaining a legally established position. Illegal contact on a post player is any tactic using hands or arms or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.

It is a foul and should be ruled as such when:

a. An opponent is displaced from a legally established or obtained position;
b. An arm-bar is extended and displaces an opponent;
c. A locked and/or extended elbow displaces an opponent;
d. A leg or knee is used in the rear of an opponent to hold or displace;
e. Holding, hooking, slapping, pinning or pushing the leg or body of an opponent;
f. An offensive post player “backs-down” and displaces the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.

CONTACT (10-6-12, clarified): The change in 2014-15 identified specific acts that are to be ruled fouls when applied on a ball handler/dribbler. Changes have been made by the committee to clarify when a player becomes a ball handler. When a player becomes the ball handler the provisions of rule 10-6-12 will apply. The changes emphasize a person in a post position should be considered a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. Upon reception of the ball, all fouls outlined ruled.

Now where I find issue with these statements is NF doesn't define a post player in the rule book (if you do a search of the rule book online the word "post" is only found four times and all instances are in this season's PsOE). NCAA - women and men - do. That gives college officials a better starting point in terms of handling post contact.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This is from NCAAW, but I think it would apply to HS as well:

This season, the rules committee revised the guidelines for determining legal and illegal contact on a post player in control of the ball in the lane area with her back to the basket. The new guidelines state that in this situation, the defensive post player “may place a forearm or one hand on the
offensive player”. Additionally, in this same scenario, it is illegal for the defensive player to contact the offensive post player with her body, leg or knee.

It is important to remember that, in either case, it is the defensive player who initiates the contact with the offensive player. If an offensive post player with the ball causes contact with the defensive post player and the contact is with non-permitted body parts, this is not a foul on the defensive
player. Also, a defensive post player is never required to vacate a legally established position because of the movement of an offensive player (Rule 4-18.3).

Officials have to know which player initiated the contact. When the defensive player places body
parts in excess of what is permitted on the offensive post player with the ball, a foul shall be called on the defensive player. When the offensive post player causes contact with the defender and this
contact is incidental, a foul shall not be charged to the defender; when this contact is illegal, a player-control foul shall be charged to the off

In high school i don't believe it is legal to use the arm bar to displace OR PREVENT an offensive player from getting to a spot. When an arm bar is extended it's about a foot away from the body. there is space between the two players. either player is entitled to this space if they get there first etc. If an offensive post player without the ball tries to back up into that open space and runs into and is clearly prevented from going back by an arm bar, i believe that is a foul in high school. Holding/blocking etc. It is not in NCAAM.

As Cameron said, i view it the same as sticking an arm out and holding/blocking etc. When the offensive player backs up into the arm bar it has to "collapse" in high school if the offensive player wants to move back into that open space.

If a post player catches the ball, i will give the defender a moment to collapse it, raise hands up etc. if the arm bar isn't on the offensive post player but he dribbles back into a defender's arm bar i need to see the arm bar collapse immediately or hands go up. Defender can't prevent opponent from backing further with the arm bar or leave it on the defender. NCAAM are allowed to keep the arm bar in place until the post player faces up. This is my view of the arm bar. I havnt seen anything that makes the arm bar legal to prevent offense from going anywhere.