Held ball during AP throw in

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If this is the worst rule ever, then I'd say the basketball rules committee has done a pretty damn good job, because this is something that you could go your entire officiating career and not see happen.

I came close. I ruled a held ball in a situation like this, but the original throw-in was not an AP throw-in.

And even that I have only seen once in 7+ years.

And yes, of course it was a 7th grade girls game. I mean, seriously....where else?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Nothing said here thus far has changed the fact the defense is getting kinda screwed on this play.

How? They didn't make a good enough play to take the ball so why should they be awarded the ball?

[BryanV21]

So we should reward the defender for grabbing a ball that was basically handed to him by the inbounder?

Or is it because the defender knows the rule, in which case we should also let defenders use their feet to block passes because they know that it's a kicking violation, and we should reward them for knowing the rule.

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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So we should reward the defender for grabbing a ball that was basically handed to him by the inbounder?

Or is it because the defender knows the rule, in which case we should also let defenders use their feet to block passes because they know that it's a kicking violation, and we should reward them for knowing the rule.

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What does it matter either way? As long as we know the rules and can explain them quickly when questioned.

Your second paragraph leaves me confused.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What does it matter either way? As long as we know the rules and can explain them quickly when questioned.

Your second paragraph leaves me confused.

I was responding to the idea that the rule is not fair to the defense.

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[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How? They didn't make a good enough play to take the ball so why should they be awarded the ball?

Isn't that almost always the case in a held ball? The ball is held by both parties, correct?? So neither of them have full possession??? In this exact case of the OP, not the other stuff that has been mentioned, I don't agree that it should keep being an AP throw in. I know my opinion on the rules matters not when I'm calling but this, to me, does not pass the smell test. To me, a held ball should be that, period, and go to arrow, regardless of when/where/why the play started.

I will say that I hope I don't ever have this in a game but given this convo, I'll be well informed to make the right call as that is really all that matters.


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[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I'm still saying from all points of my view, referee/fan/former player, this is just silly. Very poor interpretation of throw in ending. I understand the rule and if it ever happened will adjudicate correctly but still think it is silly that the same team would keep getting the ball back no matter how many times it occurred. Nothing said here thus far has changed the fact the defense is getting kinda screwed on this play.

NCAA tried a rule that defense gets the ball on a held ball (implemented following a NCAA Tournament game that essentially ended on a possession arrow returning the ball to the offense with only seconds left) on the idea that the defense played good defense. (Kinda like the change from jump ball to turn over on closely guarded.)

It was a mess and I believe only lasted one season.

[BlueDevilRef]

I'm not saying defense should get the ball every time. I'm saying when a held ball occurs, we should go to the arrow for next possession. As in the OP, the ball would go to defense. I am simply saying held ball should be a held ball, regardless of how ball was coming into play


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I'm not saying defense should get the ball every time. I'm saying when a held ball occurs, we should go to the arrow for next possession. As in the OP, the ball would go to defense. I am simply saying held ball should be a held ball, regardless of how ball was coming into play


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Again, this is a very rare situation in the first place. And if it happens the defense did not really make the best play, because if they did, they would have pulled the ball away from the thrower. And they did not get an intentional foul or even technical by not touching the thrower on the other side of the line or dislodging the ball. So much could have gone wrong for the defense here and they just caused us to blow the whistle.

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I think this sucks. If nothing else has happened (fouls etc), this just punishes team B for playing astute throw in defense. If team A thrower in holds ball over the playing surface and you tie it up 15 times, they get to keep the ball each time it happens? Chalk this up to one of the worst rules of basketball


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I think the rule that team A would keep the alternating possesion arrow if they commit a foul before the throw-in if completed seems more strange than the held ball situation (especially given that team A would lose the arrow for a violation).

That situatuation does actually happen every once in a while and almost always requires a trip to the table after the throw in for the foul to tell them to put the arrow back to the offensive team.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I'm not saying defense should get the ball every time. I'm saying when a held ball occurs, we should go to the arrow for next possession. As in the OP, the ball would go to defense. I am simply saying held ball should be a held ball, regardless of how ball was coming into play


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Why is this so tough to accept? An AP throw-in ENDS when ONLY 2 scenarios are met. If neither scenario is met then the AP throw-in has not concluded therefore the arrow doesn't change.

What does fair and rules have to do with anything?

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why is this so tough to accept? An AP throw-in ENDS when ONLY 2 scenarios are met. If neither scenario is met then the AP throw-in has not concluded therefore the arrow doesn't change.



What does fair and rules have to do with anything?

I accept it just fine. My point is that the tie up by the defense, imo, should end the throw in. The ball is being touched in bounds, legally. Again, imo, why is it at that point any different from any other held ball!!!! My point that it's not fair has been the focus of too much. I concede that fairness isn't an issue for the rules of this situation but the fact remains that the ball is being possessed by both teams over the playing surface i.e. INBOUNDS. I get the rule but as I have stated, I disagree with it. Doesn't mean I don't understand it. I know it rarely happens but I think it is a poorly written rule. I just don't agree the AP should supersede so much. But maybe I'm just totally missing the point.


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[deecee]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I accept it just fine. My point is that the tie up by the defense, imo, should end the throw in. The ball is being touched in bounds, legally. Again, imo, why is it at that point any different from any other held ball!!!! My point that it's not fair has been the focus of too much. I concede that fairness isn't an issue for the rules of this situation but the fact remains that the ball is being possessed by both teams over the playing surface i.e. INBOUNDS. I get the rule but as I have stated, I disagree with it. Doesn't mean I don't understand it. I know it rarely happens but I think it is a poorly written rule. I just don't agree the AP should supersede so much. But maybe I'm just totally missing the point.


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Wrong. The throw in ends when the "passed" ball is legally touched in bounds or a violation by the team doing the throw in.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by deecee

Wrong. The throw in ends when the "passed" ball is legally touched in bounds or a violation by the team doing the throw in.

That actually will help me with all this (minor as it is). So, thank you for clarifying. Missed the one word that really matters as I often do.

While I still feel the held ball should be a held ball, I see now the intent of the rule as currently written. Thanks


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[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I'm not saying defense should get the ball every time. I'm saying when a held ball occurs, we should go to the arrow for next possession. As in the OP, the ball would go to defense. I am simply saying held ball should be a held ball, regardless of how ball was coming into play


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It is a held ball, and we are going to the arrow. The arrow simply doesn't change in this situation, because the throw in never legally ended, which means the arrow changes.