Another backcourt question

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe that a try, and a tap, are treated the same for the purposes of scoring points, fouls in the act, etc. (although it hasn't always been that way).

Batting the ball is usually construed to mean no player control.

If a player "batted" a ball towards the basket before time expires, and the ball enters the basket after time expires, would you count the basket?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If a player "batted" a ball towards the basket before time expires, and the ball enters the basket after time expires, would you count the basket?

Yes.

4-41-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5. (three tenths of a second or less).

[BillyMac]

Player saves a ball that a teammate throws toward a boundary. The player's momentum takes him out of bounds. The ball remains inbounds and the player returns inbounds, picks up the ball with two hands, and dribbles the ball.

Legal if he tapped, or tipped, or batted, the ball (no player control).

Illegal if he caught the ball with one hand, and controlled it's trajectory back onto the court (player control).

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes.

4-41-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5. (three tenths of a second or less).

Okay, so "batting" a ball is the same as a "try", hence it was in a player's control. I know the terminology I'm using is suspect, but the point is the ball was purposely batted into the backcourt. Let's see if I can explain it like a case play...

A1 in-bounds the ball to A2, who is standing in Team A's frontcourt. A2, seeing that a defender is closing in on him, knows he needs to do something to avoid a steal, so he bats the ball to the only open teammate he sees... A3, who happens to be standing in the backcourt.

From what's been said this is not a violation. However, the fact that A2 purposely batted the ball to A3 indicates a pass... and therefore some form of control.

The intent of the "tip" rule during an in-bounds play seems to be in reference to the ball accidentally being tipped into the backcourt, not purposely batted into the backcourt.

Am I making sense?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Am I making sense?

Yes you are.

After a throwin, if the ball is tipped, tapped, or batted, even on purpose, to a backcourt teammate, there was never player control in the frontcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

If, on the other hand, after a throwin, if the ball caught with one hand, and it's trajectory is controlled to a backcourt teammate, there has been player control in the frontcourt, and thus, this is a backcourt violation.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes you are.

After a throwin, if the ball is tipped, tapped, or batted, even on purpose, to a backcourt teammate, there was never player control in the frontcourt, and thus, no backcourt violation.

If, on the other hand, after a throwin, if the ball caught with one hand, and it's trajectory is controlled to a backcourt teammate, there has been player control in the frontcourt, and thus, this is a backcourt violation.

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

Seems like a technicality that circumvents the intent of the "tip" rule, and thus should be fixed, but that makes perfect sense.

Thanks, Billy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Okay, so "batting" a ball is the same as a "try", hence it was in a player's control.

Not necessarily. Slow down big fella.

If a player tips, taps, or bats, the ball into the basket from a pass, or a rebound, or a throwin, then said player never had player control (although he can be charged with player control foul if he was an airborne shooter: 4-19-6: A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter.)

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not necessarily. Slow down big fella.

If a player tips, taps, or bats, the ball into the basket from a pass, or a rebound, or a throwin, then said payer never had player control (let's ignore airborne shooter for now).

Yeah, like I said, I know using the term "player control" made the statement iffy. But I couldn't think of, or was too lazy to, come up with another way to describe what I meant.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Yeah, like I said, I know using the term "player control" made the statement iffy. But I couldn't think of, or was too lazy to, come up with another way to describe what I meant.

Don't beat yourself up. Your questions were quite logical, and we all knew what you were asking. Questions regarding backcourt from a throwin are always complex, especially after the NFHS gave team control to the throwin team for (only) team foul purposes.

Good posts. Nice thread.

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Of course not -- and that's pfan's point. There was never a time when you would have granted a TO, so there was never PC in the front court, so there's no BC violation.

Yup!

[bob jenkins]

Somewhere there is (or was) a rule to the effect that "batting a ball away from other players is not PC" (or maybe it said "is not part of a dribble").

Apply that to teh "bat into the back court" discussion