"Change of possession" correctable error

[bballref3966]

NFHS 2.10.1 Situation A

A1 is fouled and entitled to two free throws. However, the officials indicate a one-and-one bonus situation. The first attempt is unsuccessful; B4 rebounds the ball and passes it up to B2. The error is discovered with B2 in possession of the live ball near mid-court. RULING: The error is discovered within the correctable error timeframe, and shall be corrected. Team B securing the rebound and passing to a teammate constitutes no change in team possession. Therefore, A1 will receive the merited free throw with players in lane line spaces and play resumes from the free throw.

Just for clarification, is the reason that this does not constitute a change of possession because team control ended upon the release of the free throw attempt?

Although I think most of us agree that team control ends once the free throw is released (and the rules intend for it to), the rules don't seem to explicitly clarify this.

[Nevadaref]

Nope, it's just because someone with the NFHS wrote that incorrectly. There is clearly a change of team possession from A attempting a FT to B rebounding the miss.
The proper way to administer this play is to halt the game with Team B in control at midcourt, have A1 attempt the second FT with no players along the lane, and then return to midcourt and award Team B a POI throw-in.

[mcdanrd]

I Disagree. Rule 6-7Article 2a states that the ball remains deadwhen a free throw is to be followed by another free throw. The official incorrectly indicating a 1-1 situation and team B getting a rebound does not change the fact that the ball is still dead and a second free throw is to follow.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, it's just because someone with the NFHS wrote that incorrectly. There is clearly a change of team possession from A attempting a FT to B rebounding the miss.
The proper way to administer this play is to halt the game with Team B in control at midcourt, have A1 attempt the second FT with no players along the lane, and then return to midcourt and award Team B a POI throw-in.

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BigCat

There is clearly a change in possession from A shooting the FT and B rebounding the ball. The rule says however, no change of possession "since the error was made." The error here is made when B rebounds the ball and plays on. The play has been in the book for years. best i can come up with at this time..to support the case play...

Is there team possession on a free throw? I don't believe there is. Can't have a change of possession if A never has team control.

[crosscountry55]

This has been in the case book since at least 1997-8 when I started (and probably a lot longer). I admit that it perplexed the heck out of me as well. But I will say that if NFHS had an editing error, surely it would have fixed it by now. Ok, ok....I'll settle for "hopefully" it would have fixed it by now considering we're talking mostly about the Struckhoff era.

Anyway, here's the deal. BigCat was correct in that the sequence and the words matter. There is no correctable error until it becomes clear that there is a failure to award a merited free throw, and this happens when B rebounds and the officials signal to start the clock. That's the initial possession of concern. Even if you argue that the error is recognized when players in the lane spaces start to go in, the free throw has already been released at that point, and we all know that there is no team control (and therefore no possession) on a try.

Say it with me now.....there has been no change in possession since the error was recognized.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Is there team possession on a free throw? I don't believe there is. Can't have a change of possession if A never has team control.

If team A is holding the ball or it is at it's "disposal" they have team control. free throw, throw in...etc. look over team control and live ball dead ball stuff. thx

[SC Official]

It makes no sense to me why the NFHS uses the undefined term "possession" instead of the proper term "control" or "team control."

[BryanV21]

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

But anyway, like BigCat said, the error doesn't occur until Team B gains control and the clock is started by an official. Therefore, Team B was in control from the time the error occurred until the error was found. So no change of possession occurred... shoot the 2nd FT, and go from there.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Rule 4-41-2

"A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into the team's own basket."

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

Disagree.

4-20-1

“A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicircle and behind the free-throw line.”

So, there is some discrepancy between 4-41-2, which says that "a try for field goal...two or three points..." and 4-20-1. But it's pretty clear to me that the intent of the rule is that team control ends upon the release of the free throw.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Therefore, according to this, a free throw is not a "try", and therefore the rule about team control ending on a try for goal is irrelevant here. A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control.

This is not correct.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SC Official

This is not correct.

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

See bballref.

Speaking of which, I'm not the first person to point out a discrepancy between a rules apparent intent and what is actually written. If I have to explain a call to somebody I'm more likely to go by what is actually written, not what I think they meant to write.

And another poster (sorry for being lazy and not going back to see who) pointed out that this case play has been around for a long time. Not to say it would be the first time the NFHS has botched something, but there's a decent chance it's correct as written.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Would you mind telling me why? I'm not saying my interpretation is right, but just saying I'm wrong is a little messed up.

For the reason that bballref said. That and there is no basis for the idea that team control continues on a free throw once the shooter releases the ball.

I understand that there is some discrepancy, but the idea of team control continuing until the end of the free throw is unheard of (or, at least I have never heard it).

The wording of 4-20-1 implies, at least in my opinion, that a free throw is to be treated the same as a two- or three-point try when it comes to the termination of team control.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For the reason that bballref said. That and there is no basis for the idea that team control continues on a free throw once the shooter releases the ball.

I understand that there is some discrepancy, but the idea of team control continuing until the end of the free throw is unheard of (or, at least I have never heard it).

The wording of 4-20-1 implies, at least in my opinion, that a free throw is to be treated the same as a two- or three-point try when it comes to the termination of team control.

Sorry, but I don't like simply being told I'm wrong, or what I said isn't right. I'm not a little kid whose mom or dad decides to tell me something is the way it is "because I told you so". And if you were just backing up what bballref had to say, then why not say that?

And I gave you a basis for the idea that team control continues through the free throw. You can go back and check it out. Take a few minutes to do so and come back here.

Anyway...

Why would 4-41-2 be so specific about the number of points a try is worth? Why not leave the number of points out of it and simply say "A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score"?

Either 4-20-1 or 4-41-2 is written incorrectly. So was 4-41-2 needlessly precise about the number of points, or should 4-20-1 not use the words "try for goal", thus causing this confusion?

Personally, I go with the one that was more precise.

[SC Official]

I gave you a rules basis for why I believed you are incorrect. If you don't want to accept that, I really don't care. But don't act like I just told you that you were wrong without telling you my opinion why.

You said that "A team is in control when the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter." Yes, this is correct. But then you went on to say "and a FT doesn't end until the try is successful, when the ball touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead. So from the time the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, to when one of the things in the last sentence happens, the ball is in Team A's control."

You equated the end of the free throw with being the end of team control. The end of the free throw and the end of team control are not the same thing.