IAABO OOB mechanics

[constable]

I was reading through the IAABO 2 person manual. It says that if the ball goes OOB above the FTE on the lead's sideline, the trail while working the arc, is responsible for the OBB call.

How ridiculous is this? My local board doesn't employ this logic. Does anyone other IAABO board use it?

I don't work IAABO but this does make sense to an extent that Lead might be watching his primary area and not see who touched the ball. I was working 2 person one time after doing a lot of 3 in the months before that and was so focused on my matchup that I didn't even see that the ball had gone OOB on my sideline. No whistle from me so my P had blown for me.

[Rich]

I've heard this thinking before. I've completely ignored it.


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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I don't work IAABO but this does make sense to an extent that Lead might be watching his primary area and not see who touched the ball.

Then L can blow the whistle and ask for help -- just like if the ball goes out of bounds on the endline opposite L.

I agree T needs to be ready to help / make the call if L doesn't but *usually* it's either close (did the guard step on the line or not?) and T won't have a look at that, or it's really obvious (the ball ends up in the bleachers) and L will be able to see it even if he's not looking.

[stripes]

Originally Posted by constable

I was reading through the IAABO 2 person manual. It says that if the ball goes OOB above the FTE on the lead's sideline, the trail while working the arc, is responsible for the OBB call.

How ridiculous is this? My local board doesn't employ this logic. Does anyone other IAABO board use it?

In my neck of the woods, we are not IAABO, but we have used this "mechanic" for more than 20 years. More often than not, the T will have a better look at the play than the L. Especially if the ball is high and there is post play on the L's side. The L can always make the call if the L sees the OOB, but it is generally called by the T. Very easy to do.

[BryanV21]

Like Bob was saying, it doesn't make sense to me because the T has a horrible view of the opposite sideline. The L should be the 1st responsible for the OOB call, while the T steps in either for help or if the L misses the call.

I can't tell you how many times I've made OOB calls based on the ball or a player's foot barely touching the line. And in those cases, it's going to be really difficult for the official on the opposite side of the court to see that.

Look, in 2-man there are going to be missed plays, leading to complaints from coaches and others. Even in 3-man there are going to be missed plays. We can't see every inch of the court at all times.

With that said, though... when in Rome.

[deecee]

I make it a point in all pre-games that I will blow the whistle on ANY OOB on my lines, I just may ask for help. There is 1 exception and that's in transition with a backcourt pass that goes out on my sideline and I am moving down court. This is the only acceptable time for the T to call an OOB on L's line, mostly because my entire back may be to the play.

Frequency of occurrence: 1 per 5 years.

[JRutledge]

If it is obvious, the lead might not be watching the ball going out of bounds. Now a touching the line or ball hitting the sideline will be the lead's call, but the ball clearly going out of bounds where it hits a wall or goes into the stands, the Trail might be on ball and obviously tell who put the ball out of bounds. You have to work together. I think the Trail should blow the whistle if the ball clearly goes out of bounds, but look to the Lead for help. It is a huge flaw in the mechanics already so there is no perfect way to handle this either way.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is a huge flaw in the mechanics already so there is no perfect way to handle this either way.

Well said. It's the biggest problem in a two person game. It's something that always has to be pregamed, and even then, the coaches may have the best look at a player stepping on a table side sideline, certainly a much better look than the trail from over on the opposite table side.

And the lead's not even "supposed" to be looking there, it's outside of his primary. He's "supposed" to be watching the post players beating the heck out of each other.

It certainly "is a huge flaw in the mechanics" of a two person game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by constable

I was reading through the IAABO 2 person manual. It says that if the ball goes OOB above the FTE on the lead's sideline, the trail while working the arc, is responsible for the OBB call.

How ridiculous is this? My local board doesn't employ this logic. Does anyone other IAABO board use it?

Originally Posted by stripes

In my neck of the woods, we are not IAABO, but we have used this "mechanic" for more than 20 years. More often than not, the T will have a better look at the play than the L. Especially if the ball is high and there is post play on the L's side. The L can always make the call if the L sees the OOB, but it is generally called by the T. Very easy to do.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it is obvious, the lead might not be watching the ball going out of bounds. Now a touching the line or ball hitting the sideline will be the lead's call, but the ball clearly going out of bounds where it hits a wall or goes into the stands, the Trail might be on ball and obviously tell who put the ball out of bounds. You have to work together. I think the Trail should blow the whistle if the ball clearly goes out of bounds, but look to the Lead for help. It is a huge flaw in the mechanics already so there is no perfect way to handle this either way.

Peace

What IAABO has done in its Mechanics Book has put into writing what Stripes has said has been done for over twenty years across the country.

The L's Side Line is always (with apologies to "you know who"). The IAABO mechanic is a guideline for when the L has major coverage issues directly in front of him and the ball gets knocked out-of-bounds above the FT Line Extended that the L does not know that the Ball has gone out-of-bounds.

I remember, as if it were yesterday, a game in the AAU Boys' 13U Nationals in the late 1990s (not 1890s Billy, ), and Daryl H. Long (aka "The Preacher" on the Forum was my partner). I was the L when a 3-pt FGA was taken from his side of the court. I had a lot of action in the paint. The FGA attempt was unsuccessful and rebounded back toward the top of the key and then was batted with great velocity out-of-bounds above the FT Line Extended. The amount of time between the FGA being missed and being batted out-of-bounds was less than I could count 3 seconds in the paint, and yet I knew the ball had been batted toward my Side Line but the action of bodies banging in the paint had my attention and Daryl had to stop the clock and make the call.

The thing to remember is that these types of plays may only happen one or two times a game. The key is to be prepared to step and help your partner. If a HC does not like the T making the call, tell him to pay for three officials, .

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Like Bob was saying, it doesn't make sense to me because the T has a horrible view of the opposite sideline. The L should be the 1st responsible for the OOB call, while the T steps in either for help or if the L misses the call.

I can't tell you how many times I've made OOB calls based on the ball or a player's foot barely touching the line. And in those cases, it's going to be really difficult for the official on the opposite side of the court to see that.

Look, in 2-man there are going to be missed plays, leading to complaints from coaches and others. Even in 3-man there are going to be missed plays. We can't see every inch of the court at all times.

With that said, though... when in Rome.

I think the play they are talking about is when the ball is knocked OOB, not when a player steps on the line. In those cases, both are going to easily know when it goes out but it is far more likely that T will know who touched it last.

In the case of a player stepping on the line, only the L has decent view of that.

[Rich]

Look, I get the lead not knowing who it went out off of, but I can't remember an instance where I wasn't aware it went out.....

And I need more help as the lead in 3-person than 2 it seems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Look, I get the lead not knowing who it went out off of, but I can't remember an instance where I wasn't aware it went out.....

And I need more help as the lead in 3-person than 2 it seems.

The issue is not whether you know if the ball is out of bounds. The issue is do you know who it is was out of bounds off of? And if you are doing your job as the Lead, you probably are not always aware of that fact. At least when we use two person, it is for lower level games. I cannot imagine the decisions having to work high level varsity with only two officials for this reason. I got to watch players in the post and be aware of how the ball is being defended on the sideline. This is one of the biggest flaws/holes in 2 person mechanics IMO.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In the case of a player stepping on the line, only the L has decent view of that.

How can the lead have a decent view if he's not even looking over there because it's outside his primary coverage area? He's watching post players, and defenders, banging around in the paint, maybe watching for three seconds. He's not watching the point guard about to step on the sideline boundary above the free throw line extended, maybe near the division line. That would be ball watching.

Granted, this is a challenge for the trail, especially after a skip pass, but at least it's in the trail's primary coverage area.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The issue is not whether you know if the ball is out of bounds. The issue is do you know who it is was out of bounds off of? And if you are doing your job as the Lead, you probably are not always aware of that fact ... This is one of the biggest flaws/holes in 2 person mechanics.

Agree 100%.

Back in the olden days, IAABO used NFHS mechanics and had the lead's out of bounds responsibility include the entire sideline, all the way back to the backcourt endline. It was a simple guideline to follow, and would occasionally have the lead sounding his whistle for the out of bounds, and then asking the trail for help on the correct direction call. The simplicity was the best part of the mechanic, even if the out of bounds responsibility above the free throw line extended was clearly outside the lead's primary coverage area.

Then IAABO changed to IAABO mechanics and ended the lead's out of bounds responsibility at the free throw line extended. A lot of old timers, including myself, resisted the change. It required the lead, and the trail, to decide if the ball went out above, or below, the free throw line extended, definitely more complex then the old, simple, out of bounds responsibilities. Occasionally there would be no immediate whistle when the ball went out of bounds above the free the line extended, with both the trail, and the lead, thinking that the other was going to sound the whistle for the ball going out of bounds.

It took some time, but we're all starting to get use to the new out of bounds responsibilities. The topic is broached in almost every pregame conference. It's not a perfect guideline, but in the grand scheme of things, regarding primary coverage responsibilities, it makes a lot of sense.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can the lead have a decent view if he's not even looking over there because it's outside his primary coverage area? He's watching post players, and defenders, banging around in the paint, maybe watching for three seconds. He's not watching the point guard about to step on the sideline boundary above the free throw line extended, maybe near the division line. That would be ball watching.

Granted, this is a challenge for the trail, especially after a skip pass, but at least it's in the trail's primary coverage area.

2-person is a game of compromises. When the player gets that close to the sideline, the lead just has to give up the post momentarily and look up the sideline. That line itself is also the leads PCA. There is no way a T, even one who has great movement, will have the angle to see a player stepping OOB unless it is far OOB. A ball that is knocked out and lands in the first row, sure, but not one that goes 1" OOB.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Then IAABO changed to IAABO mechanics and ended the lead's out of bounds responsibility at the free throw line extended. A lot of old timers, including myself, resisted the change. It required the lead, and the trail, to decide if the ball went out above, or below, the free throw line extended, definitely more complex then the old, simple, out of bounds responsibilities. Occasionally there would be no immediate whistle when the ball went out of bounds above the free the line extended, with both the trail, and the lead, thinking that the other was going to sound the whistle for the ball going out of bounds.

It took some time, but we're all starting to get use to the new out of bounds responsibilities. The topic is broached in almost every pregame conference. It's not a perfect guideline, but in the grand scheme of things, regarding primary coverage responsibilities, it makes a lot of sense.

I think it only makes sense when the ball is knocked OOB. I think it makes no sense when the actual question is whether the player stepped on the line or dribbled the ball on the line. The trail just can't see those things. There is no amount of responsibility shifting and understanding that will allow the trail to see something that isn't visible from any normal trail position. The only way that "might" work is if the trail came all the way across to get in line with the far sideline, effectively forcing a cross court rotation.

The only person who can reliably make determinations on whether a player has stepped on a line or not is the official who is looking down that line.