Delayed Dead Ball play

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Matt

I would challenge that assertion.

Here in the great State of Ohio and that state up North, H.S. baseball is played under NFHS Rules. Furthermore, the amount of summer baseball seems to decline every Summer and for Mark, Jr., and I Summer means well over 90% of the diamond games we will umpire will be fast pitch softball and that can be said for many H.S. umpires who umpire both sports. The number of H.S. baseball umpires that umpire American Leagion baseball is very small in our area of Ohio and I from my friends around Ohio it is the same where they live. I know of only one state H.S. athletic association that uses MBL/OBR and that is Massachusetts.

MTD, Sr.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Here in the great State of Ohio and that state up North, H.S. baseball is played under NFHS Rules. Furthermore, the amount of summer baseball seems to decline every Summer and for Mark, Jr., and I Summer means well over 90% of the diamond games we will umpire will be fast pitch softball and that can be said for many H.S. umpires who umpire both sports. The number of H.S. baseball umpires that umpire American Leagion baseball is very small in our area of Ohio and I from my friends around Ohio it is the same where they live. I know of only one state H.S. athletic association that uses MBL/OBR and that is Massachusetts.

MTD, Sr.

The plural of anecdotes is not data. The majority of amateur ball in the US is played under OBR-based rules.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Matt

The plural of anecdotes is not data. The majority of amateur ball in the US is played under OBR-based rules.

While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules. That said, this discussion about who umpires what under what rules set is not germane to the discussion at hand.

The author of the OP did not state what rules set under which the game was being played. My son and I answered per NFHS Baseball Rules. MLB/OBR rulings do not apply to NFHS Rules even if the rule in both rules sets are identical. As a rules interpreter in basketball (having officiated NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and NAGWS rules sets, and familiar with NBA/WNBA Rules) I would not categorically apply one rules set ruling to another sets ruling; I may reference it only as background.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.

MTD, Sr.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules. That said, this discussion about who umpires what under what rules set is not germane to the discussion at hand.

The author of the OP did not state what rules set under which the game was being played. My son and I answered per NFHS Baseball Rules. MLB/OBR rulings do not apply to NFHS Rules even if the rule in both rules sets are identical. As a rules interpreter in basketball (having officiated NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and NAGWS rules sets, and familiar with NBA/WNBA Rules) I would not categorically apply one rules set ruling to another sets ruling; I may reference it only as background.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.

MTD, Sr.

According to Childress in his BRD, NCAA and OBR both have official interps. Childress recommends FED umpires treat as in NCAA. NCAA uses umpire judgment that the obstruction occurred near enough the base that it could not be conveniently touched.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.MTD, Sr.

How, then, would you propose the umpire "nullify the effects of the obstruction" in this case, in an NFHS game?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bigda65

mtd,

do you think that calling the out "nullifies" the obstruction of the runner?

He has scored, ball is dead, under nfhs rules is he even allowed to come and retouch his awarded bases?

Da

DA:

NFHS R8-S2-A3: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored. NOTE: Any runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is later called out shall be considered as having advanced one base.

The answer to your question is no.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by umpjim

according to childress in his brd, ncaa and obr both have official interps. Childress recommends fed umpires treat as in ncaa. Ncaa uses umpire judgment that the obstruction occurred near enough the base that it could not be conveniently touched.

UmpJim:

Excusing the two times that I had to correct a former NFHS Basketball Rules Editor when the said Editor gave a patently incorrect interpretation as an Official Interpretation, any interpretation that I give is not official (even though 99.999,999,...% of my basketball interpretations were and are correct, ) until the Rules Editor agrees in writing. That said, while Carl's interpretations may be correct, until the NFHS makes a ruling on such a play, Carl's interpretations can only be applied with the knowledge that the NFHS may say otherwise.

There is no play in the current NFHS Baseball Casebook that covers the situation being discussed in the OP. The search engine in the NFHS's publication is great for this sort of thing.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by md longhorn

how, then, would you propose the umpire "nullify the effects of the obstruction" in this case, in an nfhs game?

MD Longhorn:

I am not sure why I included NFHS R8-S3-A2 in my OP, other than to remind everyone that umpires can protect an obstructed runner for more that one base under NFHS Rules.

MTD, Sr.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

DA:

NFHS R8-S2-A3: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored. NOTE: Any runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is later called out shall be considered as having advanced one base.

The answer to your question is no.

MTD, Sr.







UmpJim:

Excusing the two times that I had to correct a former NFHS Basketball Rules Editor when the said Editor gave a patently incorrect interpretation as an Official Interpretation, any interpretation that I give is not official (even though 99.999,999,...% of my basketball interpretations were and are correct, ) until the Rules Editor agrees in writing. That said, while Carl's interpretations may be correct, until the NFHS makes a ruling on such a play, Carl's interpretations can only be applied with the knowledge that the NFHS may say otherwise.

There is no play in the current NFHS Baseball Casebook that covers the situation being discussed in the OP. The search engine in the NFHS's publication is great for this sort of thing.

MTD, Sr.





MD Longhorn:

I am not sure why I included NFHS R8-S3-A2 in my OP, other than to remind everyone that umpires can protect an obstructed runner for more that one base under NFHS Rules.

MTD, Sr.

So there is no guidance in the FED supplemental interps. There is guidance in the other codes. The other code's rules could be used to call the runner out but we have interps that allow you to judge otherwise. Because FED hasn't addressed it you choose to rule other than how the other codes rule? Edited to add: Or perhaps you are rationalizing your original post because you were not aware of the NCAA and OBR interps?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by umpjim

So there is no guidance in the FED supplemental interps. There is guidance in the other codes. The other code's rules could be used to call the runner out but we have interps that allow you to judge otherwise. Because FED hasn't addressed it you choose to rule other than how the other codes rule? Edited to add: Or perhaps you are rationalizing your original post because you were not aware of the NCAA and OBR interps?

UmpJim:

First, the thread's OP did not state under which rules set the game was being playe. I based my opinion on my stated assumption that the game was being played under NFHS Baseball Rules. That said, I am not ratioalizing my opinion in my OP dependent upon whether I was or was not aware of the NCAA or MLB/OBR interpretations.

It does not matter what the other rules codes say about the matter. For expample if a play happened in a basketball game being played under NFHS Baketball Rules, and there was no applicable Rules or NFHS Casebook Plays [or even NCAA Approved Rulings or Casebook Plays, assuming the NCAA Basketball Rules were the same (those who have read my posts on the Basketball Forum will understand the historical context from which why I might look to the NCAA Basketball Rules)], but the NBA/WNBA Rules Book does cover such a play, I am still prohibited from using the NBA/WNBA Rules to make a decision.

Therefore, while Childress and Wendelsteidt's books are informative, they do not have "the force of law" for a game played using NFHS Baseball Rules.

Obviously, the thread's OP is a play that should be submitted to the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee for its opinion.

MTD, Sr.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules.

That's not what you said. You're moving the goalposts.