Delayed Dead Ball or Not?

[harmbu]

R2 and R3. Batter misses a bunt on a squeeze play and the runner from third get caught in a rundown. After making the throw to third, the catcher stays in the baseline and the runner runs into him and falls down. Is this an immediate dead ball or is it delayed? Where is the runner on second placed at the end of the play?

Thanks

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by harmbu

R2 and R3. Batter misses a bunt on a squeeze play and the runner from third get caught in a rundown. After making the throw to third, the catcher stays in the baseline and the runner runs into him and falls down. Is this an immediate dead ball or is it delayed? Where is the runner on second placed at the end of the play?

Thanks

I say it is a delayed dead ball in both FED and OBR. In OBR, it is type B (or 2) obstruction, as a play is not being made on the runner at the time of the obstruction. If R3 advances to 3rd on the play, he stays there. If not, he stays at 2nd base.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by harmbu

R2 and R3. Batter misses a bunt on a squeeze play and the runner from third get caught in a rundown. After making the throw to third, the catcher stays in the baseline and the runner runs into him and falls down. Is this an immediate dead ball or is it delayed? Where is the runner on second placed at the end of the play?

Thanks

In OBR this is Type (A) OBS since the defense was playing on R3.

1. The call is TIME
2 That's OBS
3. Award R3 home.

Now we have R2. It's umpire judgement as to where to place R2. Generally speaking if R2 was halfway or greater to third base, award R2 third. If he was 1/3 of the way keep him at second.

In FED, we do not have to worry about the placement of R2 because in FED OBS is a delayed dead ball and we wait until all playing action is over before enforcing. Playing action ends, when all runners have stopped advancing.

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Pete is right. Type A in OBR on a rundown play.

[DG]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

In OBR this is Type (A) OBS since the defense was playing on R3.

1. The call is TIME
2 That's OBS
3. Award R3 home.

Now we have R2. It's umpire judgement as to where to place R2. Generally speaking if R2 was halfway or greater to third base, award R2 third. If he was 1/3 of the way keep him at second.

In FED, we do not have to worry about the placement of R2 because in FED OBS is a delayed dead ball and we wait until all playing action is over before enforcing. Playing action ends, when all runners have stopped advancing.

Pete Booth

I'm not going to allow R2 to advance to 3b if he was nowhere near 3b when obstruction occured and the ball is rolling around due to the obstruction. It may be delayed dead, but the offense will not gain an advantage.

[GarthB]

"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

I must save this post for BigUmp56, with whom I have had a running fued over this issue for some time now. I have long held that there is no delayed dead ball in OBR. There is in Little League, and they use the FED signal too. But in any other league with an OBR rule base, there is no such animal. In OBR, you point at the play and say "that's Obstruction," and you don't stick your left arm out to the side.

Tim, I'm not often right, but in this I am. I used the example in my original post to see if I could draw out some opinion to match my own, and I did. Apparently Reverend Jimmy agrees.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by GarthB

"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

Do you know how Evans reconciles that statement with his repeated references to "delayed dead ball" to explain some types of interference, balks, and type B obstruction, in his book Baseball Rules Annotated?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Do you know how Evans reconciles that statement with his repeated references to "delayed dead ball" to explain some types of interference, balks, and type B obstruction, in his book Baseball Rules Annotated?

No...... how?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No...... how?

I don't know, I'm asking Garth.

Personally, I believe the 2004 comment on its own must be out of context with respect to the point Evans may have been making. While there is no specific or explicit reference to "delayed dead ball" in the rules, there most certainly is a "delayed dead" principle, it is applied in several situations, and Jim Evans damn sure knows it.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I don't know, I'm asking Garth.

Personally, I believe the 2004 comment on its own must be out of context with respect to the point Evans may have been making. While there is no specific or explicit reference to "delayed dead ball" in the rules, there most certainly is a "delayed dead" principle, it is applied in several situations, and Jim Evans damn sure knows it.

Why the huff?

In person, Jim teaches that there is no such animal as a delayed dead ball. It is either live or dead. His favorite example is batter's interference with the catcher's throw on a stealing R1. The ball remains live on the interference; then if the offense does not retire the runner, time is called, the ball is dead and enforcement follows. If the runner is retired, the interference is ignored, the ball remains live. Thus no need for a "delayed" dead ball.

His 2004 comment was repeated, to my personal knowledge, again in 2006 and probably many other times. I did not take it out of context.

I will ask him how he reconciles his teaching with his writings, but I will accept what he has instructed. I see no problem with it.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Why the huff?

In person, Jim teaches that there is no such animal as a delayed dead ball. It is either live or dead. His favorite example is batter's interference with the catcher's throw on a stealing R1. The ball remains live on the interference; then if the offense does not retire the runner, time is called, the ball is dead and enforcement follows. If the runner is retired, the interference is ignored, the ball remains live. Thus no need for a "delayed" dead ball.

His 2004 comment was repeated, to my personal knowledge, again in 2006 and probably many other times. I did not take it out of context.

I will ask him how he reconciles his teaching with his writings, but I will accept what he has instructed. I see no problem with it.

No huff was intended, merely confusion at what appear to be extremely contradictory statements by the same person, a universally recognized expert on the rules of baseball.

I don't understand the point of proclaiming there is no such thing as a delayed dead ball, unless it is merely to point out that the rules are not explicit about it, but indeed the proper enforcement mechanism for several instances is very aptly described as utilizing the concept of a "delayed dead ball," just like Jim described in in his book.

[mbyron]

I won't presume to speak for Evans, but FED does have a third "status" for the ball, in addition to live and dead, and signalling that status has its own mechanic (fist held out to the side). THIS is what OBR does not have.

The concept of calling "time" at the end of playing action in order to enforce a penalty might be (and often is) labeled "delayed dead," but that's not the language of the OBR.

The trick is to use the concept without suggesting that the ball has a distinct status unavailable under OBR.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I won't presume to speak for Evans, but FED does have a third "status" for the ball, in addition to live and dead, and signalling that status has its own mechanic (fist held out to the side). THIS is what OBR does not have.

The concept of calling "time" at the end of playing action in order to enforce a penalty might be (and often is) labeled "delayed dead," but that's not the language of the OBR.

The trick is to use the concept without suggesting that the ball has a distinct status unavailable under OBR.

That's all well and good, but if we're only talking semantics, we might as well be discussing why it's catcher's interference in OBR and catcher's obstruction in FED. It's the same offense, and it's the same enforcement - delayed dead - whether we call it that or not.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

That's all well and good, but if we're only talking semantics, we might as well be discussing why it's catcher's interference in OBR and catcher's obstruction in FED. It's the same offense, and it's the same enforcement - delayed dead - whether we call it that or not.

I think it is more accurate to deal with as Evans teaches. Will the ball ALWAYS become dead on catcher's interferenece? Or will it either be dead or live depending on circumstances? If it is not assuredly to become dead, that is, it may remain live, then why would you want to always call it delayed dead?