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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 07, 2015, 05:39pm
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Delayed Dead Ball play

I had this happen two days ago, and fortunately, it played itself out, but I'm wondering a what if:

R1 on 2nd, R2 on first, with two outs. Batter hits a ball a foot inside the bag fair down third base line. R1 cruising into 3rd is contacted by F5 who is just getting to his feet after a futile attempt to stop the ball going down the line. The bump causes R1 to miss third base, but he safely scores as the throw from the outfield is mishandled by the catcher allowing R2 to also score. The batter ends up on second. I am U2, and had called the obstruction but I let the play continue to conclusion.

There was no argument or appeal, so the play stood.

However, what would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base? Would I have awarded R1 home? Then held R2 at third and the batter at second? Or does the obstruction negate the missed bag totally?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 07, 2015, 06:37pm
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Since the OBS *caused* the missed base, rule the runner safe on any appeal. The OBS did not affect any other runners, so leave them where they ended up.
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Old Wed Apr 08, 2015, 09:13am
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Always listen to Bob.

You can't punish a runner for missing a base because the defense made him miss it.

Now, if you have, say F3 obstructing the batter-runner near first base and the BR subsequently misses 2nd or 3rd base, then you could have BR called out on proper appeal.
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Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 07:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Dugan View Post
I had this happen two days ago, and fortunately, it played itself out, but I'm wondering a what if:

R1 on 2nd, R2 on first, with two outs. Batter hits a ball a foot inside the bag fair down third base line. R1 cruising into 3rd is contacted by F5 who is just getting to his feet after a futile attempt to stop the ball going down the line. The bump causes R1 to miss third base, but he safely scores as the throw from the outfield is mishandled by the catcher allowing R2 to also score. The batter ends up on second. I am U2, and had called the obstruction but I let the play continue to conclusion.

There was no argument or appeal, so the play stood.

However, what would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base? Would I have awarded R1 home? Then held R2 at third and the batter at second? Or does the obstruction negate the missed bag totally?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Since the OBS *caused* the missed base, rule the runner safe on any appeal. The OBS did not affect any other runners, so leave them where they ended up.
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Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
Always listen to Bob.

You can't punish a runner for missing a base because the defense made him miss it.

Now, if you have, say F3 obstructing the batter-runner near first base and the BR subsequently misses 2nd or 3rd base, then you could have BR called out on proper appeal.

MTD, Jr., and I beg to differ with the rulings in [COLOR="red"]red[/COLOR] per NFHS Rules.

Obstruction does not absolve a Runner from touching all of the Bases.


NFHS R8-S2-A1: An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third, and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

NFHS R8-S2-A2: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored.

NFHS R8-S2-A5: If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

NFHS R8-S3-A2: When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base, the umpire shall award the obstructed runner a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred. The umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner(s) any additional bases that would nullify the obstruction.


[W]hat would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base?

The correct call is: R1 is out on appeal, R2 scores, and the Batter is on 2B. Yes, F5's obstruction hindered R1's running of the bases, but, by rule, R1 is still required to touch all of the bases per NFHS R8-S2-A1.

MTD, Sr., and MTD, Jr.


P.S. CORRECTED RULING: R1 is out on appeal for missing 3B; R2's run does not score because R1's baserunning infraction is the third out of the inning; and B5's at bat is a fielder's choice (if you are scoring at home, ).
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Fri Apr 10, 2015 at 05:35pm. Reason: Added P.S. with a corrected ruling.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 08:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
MTD, Jr., and I beg to differ with the rulings in [COLOR="red"]red[/COLOR] per NFHS Rules.

Obstruction does not absolve a Runner from touching all of the Bases.


NFHS R8-S2-A1: An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third, and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

NFHS R8-S2-A2: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored.

NFHS R8-S2-A5: If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

NFHS R8-S3-A2: When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base, the umpire shall award the obstructed runner a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred. The umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner(s) any additional bases that would nullify the obstruction.


[W]hat would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base?

The correct call is: R1 is out on appeal, R2 scores, and the Batter is on 2B. Yes, F5's obstruction hindered R1's running of the bases, but, by rule, R1 is still required to touch all of the bases per NFHS R8-S2-A1.

MTD, Sr., and MTD, Jr.
When you call R1 (R2 for other codes) out do you then have to decide what base you have protected him to. You did call the obstruction. Might you then have to award him award him 3B after you call him out? Bob's way is better and is referenced at least in OBR.
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Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 09:00pm
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Originally Posted by umpjim View Post
When you call R1 (R2 for other codes) out do you then have to decide what base you have protected him to. You did call the obstruction. Might you then have to award him award him 3B after you call him out? Bob's way is better and is referenced at least in OBR.

I used the notation in the OP which is the NFHS notation for base runners. If someone wants to give a ruling using MLB/OBR or NCAA Rules he or she is welcome to do so. That said I am referencing NFHS Rules because the vast majority of umpires on this forum umpire the vast majority of their games under NFHS Rules.

F5's obstruction hindered (the word used in the NFHS definitions) R1's running of the bases, but R1 is, by rule, still required to touch all of the bases in order included awarded bases. If R1, after being obstructed by F5, had returned to 3B and was not able to advance any further, the Umpire who recognized F5's obstruction and R1 and R2 bases, which in the OP would have been HP for R1 and 3B and HP for R2.

MTD, Sr.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 09:18pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim View Post
Bob's way is better and is referenced at least in OBR.
What is the OBR reference, please?
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Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 10:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
What is the OBR reference, please?
Might be others but this is what I remember:

Wendelstedt Umpire Manuel:

"If a runner misses a base, or never reaches a base, as a result of the obstruction of a fielder, the umpire may consider the base as touched or reached if he believes it would have taken place had the obstruction not occurred. "
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Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 10:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I used the notation in the OP which is the NFHS notation for base runners. If someone wants to give a ruling using MLB/OBR or NCAA Rules he or she is welcome to do so. That said I am referencing NFHS Rules because the vast majority of umpires on this forum umpire the vast majority of their games under NFHS Rules.

F5's obstruction hindered (the word used in the NFHS definitions) R1's running of the bases, but R1 is, by rule, still required to touch all of the bases in order included awarded bases. If R1, after being obstructed by F5, had returned to 3B and was not able to advance any further, the Umpire who recognized F5's obstruction and R1 and R2 bases, which in the OP would have been HP for R1 and 3B and HP for R2.

MTD, Sr.
Would you not at least award R1(really R2) 3B as at a minimum a one base award at time of obstruction?
Side note. Can the moderator impose a rule to use every other codes runner designation other than FED?
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Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 12:14am
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
IThat said I am referencing NFHS Rules because the vast majority of umpires on this forum umpire the vast majority of their games under NFHS Rules.
I would challenge that assertion.
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Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 07:19am
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I would challenge that assertion.

Here in the great State of Ohio and that state up North, H.S. baseball is played under NFHS Rules. Furthermore, the amount of summer baseball seems to decline every Summer and for Mark, Jr., and I Summer means well over 90% of the diamond games we will umpire will be fast pitch softball and that can be said for many H.S. umpires who umpire both sports. The number of H.S. baseball umpires that umpire American Leagion baseball is very small in our area of Ohio and I from my friends around Ohio it is the same where they live. I know of only one state H.S. athletic association that uses MBL/OBR and that is Massachusetts.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 09:01am
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Here in the great State of Ohio and that state up North, H.S. baseball is played under NFHS Rules. Furthermore, the amount of summer baseball seems to decline every Summer and for Mark, Jr., and I Summer means well over 90% of the diamond games we will umpire will be fast pitch softball and that can be said for many H.S. umpires who umpire both sports. The number of H.S. baseball umpires that umpire American Leagion baseball is very small in our area of Ohio and I from my friends around Ohio it is the same where they live. I know of only one state H.S. athletic association that uses MBL/OBR and that is Massachusetts.

MTD, Sr.
The plural of anecdotes is not data. The majority of amateur ball in the US is played under OBR-based rules.
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Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 09:46am
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
The plural of anecdotes is not data. The majority of amateur ball in the US is played under OBR-based rules.

While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules. That said, this discussion about who umpires what under what rules set is not germane to the discussion at hand.

The author of the OP did not state what rules set under which the game was being played. My son and I answered per NFHS Baseball Rules. MLB/OBR rulings do not apply to NFHS Rules even if the rule in both rules sets are identical. As a rules interpreter in basketball (having officiated NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and NAGWS rules sets, and familiar with NBA/WNBA Rules) I would not categorically apply one rules set ruling to another sets ruling; I may reference it only as background.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.

MTD, Sr.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 09:59am
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MTD,

Do you think that calling the out "nullifies" the obstruction of the runner?

He has scored, ball is dead, under NFHS rules is he even allowed to come and retouch his awarded bases?


DA
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Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 10:06am
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules. That said, this discussion about who umpires what under what rules set is not germane to the discussion at hand.

The author of the OP did not state what rules set under which the game was being played. My son and I answered per NFHS Baseball Rules. MLB/OBR rulings do not apply to NFHS Rules even if the rule in both rules sets are identical. As a rules interpreter in basketball (having officiated NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and NAGWS rules sets, and familiar with NBA/WNBA Rules) I would not categorically apply one rules set ruling to another sets ruling; I may reference it only as background.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.

MTD, Sr.
According to Childress in his BRD, NCAA and OBR both have official interps. Childress recommends FED umpires treat as in NCAA. NCAA uses umpire judgment that the obstruction occurred near enough the base that it could not be conveniently touched.
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