awarding bases

[lawump]

Here is an excerpt from my umpire's association umpires manual which I wrote:

Example: R1, no out, hit-and-run. Fly ball to F9. R1 doesn’t pick up the ball off the bat and takes off for third base. F9’s throw to F3 to double-off R1 is wild and goes into the dugout. R1 who is between second and third when the ball goes into dead ball territory, cannot return to legally retouch first base (under high school rules).

Ruling: Under high school rules R1 is awarded two bases from the time of the pitch, so he gets third base. He is subject to being called out on appeal as he is not allowed to retouch first base. Under the major league interpretation (MLB Umpire’s manual 5.10), the runner is awarded home but is liable to be put out on appeal. However, he CAN return to first to legally re-touch first base if he does so properly. If he does, the umpire shall change his award to third base. This prevents “tipping off” the defense.

In South Carolina high school games, at the end of the play you will, on your own, call the runner out for leaving early (because we have no appeal rule in South Carolina). So this whole example is moot for high school purposes in South Carolina. For American Legion games use the major league interpretation. (For High School see 2003 case book 8.2.5 situation, pg. 56 and 2003 Rulebook Rule 8-3-5, pg. 53 for how I came up with this example)

[CT1]

Perhaps, LawUmp, it's time for you to update your manual in regards to FED rules.

The award has never, to my knowledge, been from TOP.

[BretMan]

Check out 8-3-5. This is a special case where the runner leaves base early on a caught fly ball.

[Mrumpiresir]

I agree with CT1. When the throw by the outfielder goes out of play it is two bases from TOT. See the Base Running Awrds Table.

[MD Longhorn]

There is something missing from JR's play, and a significant difference between his play and lawump's.

JR's play says the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball was THROWN. Lawumps says he was there when the ball went out of play.

His location when the ball was THROWN matters only with respect to what the award is. His location when the ball went out of play is missing from JR's play - but is critical in that it determines whether he can or cannot return all the way to first (legally). If he's returning, and has already retouched 2nd before the ball actually makes it out of play, he CAN retouch first base.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There is something missing from JR's play, and a significant difference between his play and lawump's.

JR's play says the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball was THROWN. Lawumps says he was there when the ball went out of play.

His location when the ball was THROWN matters only with respect to what the award is. His location when the ball went out of play is missing from JR's play - but is critical in that it determines whether he can or cannot return all the way to first (legally). If he's returning, and has already retouched 2nd before the ball actually makes it out of play, he CAN retouch first base.

Whether or not he can legally return depende on both the rules and the situation.

FED: If he is on/beyond the next base from his TOP base at ther time the ball went dead he cannot return.

OBR: No matter where he is, if he continues on after the ball went dead and touches whatever base is next, he cannot return, otherwise he may return.


As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead. In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B. In OBR he can if he doesn't touch 3B after it went dead.

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Whether or not he can legally return depende on both the rules and the situation.

FED: If he is on/beyond the next base from his TOP base at ther time the ball went dead he cannot return.

OBR: No matter where he is, if he continues on after the ball went dead and touches whatever base is next, he cannot return, otherwise he may return.


As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead. In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B. In OBR he can if he doesn't touch 3B after it went dead.

This if from NFHS rule 8-3-5
"When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead.

You quoted me, but missed the point entirely. No, in the play at hand, we are told where the runner is when the ball is THROWN, but no detail at all regarding where he was when the ball went out of play.

In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B.

And that part is not always correct.

The correct rules were already stated. I was just clarifying the difference and missing info in the OP as compared with lawump's correct answer.