Awarding Bases

[rottiron01]

I need a little help.

The batter hits the ball to the outfield.
The outfielder catches the ball and throws to first trying to double up R1 before he tags up. The throw ends up going out of play before the runner makes it back to first. Can you please tell me where the runner should end up?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

I need a little help.

The batter hits the ball to the outfield.
The outfielder catches the ball and throws to first trying to double up R1 before he tags up. The throw ends up going out of play before the runner makes it back to first. Can you please tell me where the runner should end up?

Speaking ASA, two bases from the time at which the ball left the fielder's hand (8-5-G). Does not matter if it's a primary throw, secondary throw, etc., as ASA does not have that in their rules.

In ASA, it does not matter which way they're going. It's where they are.

[rottiron01]

This is what I thought. Since R1 had already achieved 1B then they would be placed at third.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by rottiron01

This is what I thought. Since R1 had already achieved 1B then they would be placed at third.

No, it's because R! is on 1st or between 1st and 2nd. The difference is if R1 passed 2nd then returned, could be past 2nd at the TOT.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

No, it's because R! is on 1st or between 1st and 2nd. The difference is if R1 passed 2nd then returned, could be past 2nd at the TOT.

I don't believe the OP mentions this.

[jmkupka]

NCASAUmp... since you mentioned it (and it came up this weekend), the pitch is considered the primary throw, which if thrown out of play, is a one base award.
Is this correct?

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

I had a potentially interesting one last night.

Field with unmarked DB line. F3, off the bag, had secured then bobbled throw, THEN kind of scooped the ball toward where the DB line would have been, after the BR had reached. I was working the plate and determined that it was still in play. My immediate thought was, that if it HAD gone dead, that the BR (actually R1 now)would have got 3B, as the ball would have gone dead on the actions of F3, not because of the throw. My partner disagreed.....I feel I am correct...would I have been right?

[wadeintothem]

Its 2 bases from the base last touched at the time the ball left the fielders hand.

What was the specifics of his disagreement?
If he had a rule wrong, then post game, grab a rule book and talk it over.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

NCASAUmp... since you mentioned it (and it came up this weekend), the pitch is considered the primary throw, which if thrown out of play, is a one base award.
Is this correct?

There is no such terminology in ASA. USSSA has such terminology, and maybe other orgs as well. But not ASA.

If my amnesia serves me correctly, in USSSA, there's a difference between primary throw and a secondary throw. I THINK the primary throw is the first play made on a runner by an infielder, and a secondary throw is everything else.

However, it's been 13 years since I called USSSA, so someone will probably correct me on this.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

I had a potentially interesting one last night.

Field with unmarked DB line. F3, off the bag, had secured then bobbled throw, THEN kind of scooped the ball toward where the DB line would have been, after the BR had reached. I was working the plate and determined that it was still in play. My immediate thought was, that if it HAD gone dead, that the BR (actually R1 now)would have got 3B, as the ball would have gone dead on the actions of F3, not because of the throw. My partner disagreed.....I feel I am correct...would I have been right?

In this situation, the fielder secured the ball and then lost possession (unintentionally) into dead ball territory. The award is one base from the time the ball enetered DBT. 8-5-G EXCEPTION 1.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

NCASAUmp... since you mentioned it (and it came up this weekend), the pitch is considered the primary throw, which if thrown out of play, is a one base award.
Is this correct?

The pitch is just that, a pitch. For the purposed of the rules it is not a throw, primary or otherwise.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I don't believe the OP mentions this.

Correct, just correcting "achieved 1B", in another post.

[greymule]

I had never heard of "primary" and "secondary" throws in any code. Apparently some codes do recognize them, but ASA always awards two bases TOT, even for runners who must retouch bases left before a catch.

OBR, however, distinguishes between "first play by an infielder," which is two bases TOP, and all other throws, which are two bases TOT.

A common myth in both baseball and softball is that awards are determined by whether the errant throw came from the infield or the outfield.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

I had never heard of "primary" and "secondary" throws in any code. Apparently some codes do recognize them, but ASA always awards two bases TOT, even for runners who must retouch bases left before a catch.

OBR, however, distinguishes between "first play by an infielder," which is two bases TOP, and all other throws, which are two bases TOT.

A common myth in both baseball and softball is that awards are determined by whether the errant throw came from the infield or the outfield.

Again, forgive my hazy memory from my brief U-trip days. The term "primary" and "secondary" when relating to throws was simply a term that people used in trainings. They're not part of the official vernacular, but I believe most U-Trip umpires (at least 13 years ago) knew what it meant.

Then again, all of us know what a double-fist pump means. Doesn't mean it's right.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In this situation, the fielder secured the ball and then lost possession (unintentionally) into dead ball territory. The award is one base from the time the ball enetered DBT. 8-5-G EXCEPTION 1.

Thanks!