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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:00pm
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awarding bases

Hypothetical situation...

Runner at first base. Nobody out. Batter hits a long fly to right field. Runner on first assumes the ball is going to drop in for a hit and runs full tilt. He has already passed second base when the right fielder makes a sensational catch. The right fielder tries to put the runner out on appeal at first base. However, the throw is wild and rolls into the first-base dugout. The runner was between second and third when the throw was made. What bases are awarded to the runner? Based on the two-bases-from-the-time-of-the-throw logic, the runner should be awarded home--provided he retouches second and first properly.

Do you agree or disagree?
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:38pm
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He gets rewarded home....out on a proper appeal.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:51pm
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Depends on the rule set that the game is being contested pursuant to.

Under the major league interpretation (MLB Umpire’s manual 5.10), the runner is awarded home but is liable to be put out on appeal (for failing to retouch). However, he CAN return to first to legally retouch (as long as he returns and retouches before continuing on to touch third base after the ball became dead ). If he does return to retouch first base, the umpire shall change his award to third base. This prevents “tipping off” the defense.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:57pm
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Here is an excerpt from my umpire's association umpires manual which I wrote:

Example: R1, no out, hit-and-run. Fly ball to F9. R1 doesn’t pick up the ball off the bat and takes off for third base. F9’s throw to F3 to double-off R1 is wild and goes into the dugout. R1 who is between second and third when the ball goes into dead ball territory, cannot return to legally retouch first base (under high school rules).

Ruling: Under high school rules R1 is awarded two bases from the time of the pitch, so he gets third base. He is subject to being called out on appeal as he is not allowed to retouch first base. Under the major league interpretation (MLB Umpire’s manual 5.10), the runner is awarded home but is liable to be put out on appeal. However, he CAN return to first to legally re-touch first base if he does so properly. If he does, the umpire shall change his award to third base. This prevents “tipping off” the defense.

In South Carolina high school games, at the end of the play you will, on your own, call the runner out for leaving early (because we have no appeal rule in South Carolina). So this whole example is moot for high school purposes in South Carolina. For American Legion games use the major league interpretation. (For High School see 2003 case book 8.2.5 situation, pg. 56 and 2003 Rulebook Rule 8-3-5, pg. 53 for how I came up with this example)
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 06:02am
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Perhaps, LawUmp, it's time for you to update your manual in regards to FED rules.

The award has never, to my knowledge, been from TOP.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 06:59am
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Check out 8-3-5. This is a special case where the runner leaves base early on a caught fly ball.

Last edited by BretMan; Wed Jul 18, 2012 at 07:04am.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:18am
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I agree with CT1. When the throw by the outfielder goes out of play it is two bases from TOT. See the Base Running Awrds Table.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:26am
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There is something missing from JR's play, and a significant difference between his play and lawump's.

JR's play says the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball was THROWN. Lawumps says he was there when the ball went out of play.

His location when the ball was THROWN matters only with respect to what the award is. His location when the ball went out of play is missing from JR's play - but is critical in that it determines whether he can or cannot return all the way to first (legally). If he's returning, and has already retouched 2nd before the ball actually makes it out of play, he CAN retouch first base.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
There is something missing from JR's play, and a significant difference between his play and lawump's.

JR's play says the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball was THROWN. Lawumps says he was there when the ball went out of play.

His location when the ball was THROWN matters only with respect to what the award is. His location when the ball went out of play is missing from JR's play - but is critical in that it determines whether he can or cannot return all the way to first (legally). If he's returning, and has already retouched 2nd before the ball actually makes it out of play, he CAN retouch first base.
Whether or not he can legally return depende on both the rules and the situation.

FED: If he is on/beyond the next base from his TOP base at ther time the ball went dead he cannot return.

OBR: No matter where he is, if he continues on after the ball went dead and touches whatever base is next, he cannot return, otherwise he may return.


As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead. In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B. In OBR he can if he doesn't touch 3B after it went dead.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
Whether or not he can legally return depende on both the rules and the situation.

FED: If he is on/beyond the next base from his TOP base at ther time the ball went dead he cannot return.

OBR: No matter where he is, if he continues on after the ball went dead and touches whatever base is next, he cannot return, otherwise he may return.


As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead. In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B. In OBR he can if he doesn't touch 3B after it went dead.
This if from NFHS rule 8-3-5
"When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch"
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
As I understand the play at hand, the runner was beyond 2B when the ball went dead.
You quoted me, but missed the point entirely. No, in the play at hand, we are told where the runner is when the ball is THROWN, but no detail at all regarding where he was when the ball went out of play.

Quote:
In FED he cannot return to retouch 1B.
And that part is not always correct.

The correct rules were already stated. I was just clarifying the difference and missing info in the OP as compared with lawump's correct answer.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
You quoted me, but missed the point entirely. No, in the play at hand, we are told where the runner is when the ball is THROWN, but no detail at all regarding where he was when the ball went out of play.

And that part is not always correct.

The correct rules were already stated. I was just clarifying the difference and missing info in the OP as compared with lawump's correct answer.
My answers were correct given the assumption I made.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
My answers were correct given the assumption I made.
Given the assumption you said, it's still not always right.
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Old Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:59pm
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I admit that when I posted by first two posts in this thread, I had assumed (yes, I know what happens when you assume) that the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball became dead.

I should have read the OP more carefully. But like this post, I made those two posts late at night...not that that should be an excuse.
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Old Sat Jul 21, 2012, 11:48am
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About ten years ago this play engendered a very long thread on this board. As I remember, the instruction that the umpire change the award to 3B if the runner retouches appeared after that.

Discussion of this play will never die, since OBR and FED handle it differently, and there's always the issue of tipping off the defense. When I was doing ASA softball along with OBR and FED, I had to know yet another ruling: If the runner is between 2B and 3B when the throw is made, he is awarded home in all cases, even if he retouches 1B. He is prevented from retouching 1B only if he advances to the next base after the umpire makes the award (!).

I assumed I'd never see that play, but eventually I did. The runner from 1B was retracing his steps toward 2B when the outfielder threw toward 1B. The bouncing throw to 1B skipped past F3 just as the runner slid into 1B. When the ball went into DBT, the defense argued that the award should be 2B (the old one-plus-one-regardless-of-direction theory); the offense argued for 3B (2 bases from 1B); but the award was in fact home.
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