Illegal Slide?

[RPatrino]

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:

"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:
"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

[RPatrino]

What is the definition of a "play" ? If the alleged FPSR violation is occurring while F4 is chasing the deflected ball, how can you have a force play?

Let's add another hypothetical situation for argument sake. Let's say the grounder went to F5 instead. R1 gets a great jump and because of that, F5 chooses to throw to 1b to get the sure out. R1 over slides 2b and makes contact with F4 standing behind 2nd base. What do you have?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

OK. I agree about "force play," but if F4 is still close enough to the base to be contacted by the runner near the base, I'm ruling an FPSR violation. Again, the runner didn't know the play would end when he chose to slide illegally.

If he has moved away from the base and is chasing the ball, that would not be an FPSR violation.

[DG]

If the badly thrown ball has been deflected by fielder toward umpire at B position, well before the contact there is no longer a play, thus no interferference possible, thus no FPSR violation.

If he slid inside to avoid F4 on other side and due to bad throw F4 is drawn inside, but contact is after the deflection then where is the interference?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

OK. I agree about "force play," but if F4 is still close enough to the base to be contacted by the runner near the base, I'm ruling an FPSR violation. Again, the runner didn't know the play would end when he chose to slide illegally.

If he has moved away from the base and is chasing the ball, that would not be an FPSR violation.

You appear to be assuming things not in evidence. There is nothing illegal about sliding to the inside of the bag. You cannot pretend that the runner didn't know that the play would end but absolve the fielder of the culpability here.

For NFHS ball, a runner who slides to the inside of the bag is not doing anything illegal. There are other events that must transpire for it to be so. The OP did not offer any.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

However, the rule does specifically mention a "force play", and that is defined: A force play situation is in effect from the moment the batter becomes a runner, and is not ended until the runner is put out, reaches his advance base, or a trailing runner is put out. A force play does not need a ball or a play. In the OP, the runner is not sliding on a direct line to the base, nor sliding/running away from the fielder. By rule, this is a FPSR violation.

Now, I admit that getting two outs here seems a little over the top, but that's what the rule requires, in both FED and NCAA.

[RPatrino]

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

Note this caseplay references an attempt and does not go any further:

Rule: 2.32.2



2.32.2 SITUATION B

R1 is on third base and R2 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play.

RULING: Since R2 did not slide directly into second base, R2 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R1 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Note this caseplay references an attempt and does not go any further:

Rule: 2.32.2



2.32.2 SITUATION B

R1 is on third base and R2 is on first base with no outs. A ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 at second base. R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play.

RULING: Since R2 did not slide directly into second base, R2 is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. R1 returns to third base, the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

Here is where the OP situation differs from the case book definition of FPSR. You would have a very hard time selling calling a double play on the OP.

[SAump]

FED 8.4.2c. does not legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him, or

PENALTY: The runner is out, the ball remains live unless interference is called.

Umpire may rule that the runner is out by sliding into F4 near the bag if he believes the runner has abandoned effort to reach base safely and is trying to protect advance of teammate.

HTBT, but if no other possible play in progress, I have nothing here.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Dave, please reference a case book play, or rule reference. I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. As I see it, no ball, no play, no FPSR. Yes, there is a force situation, but there can be no interference.

Well, because the NCAA rules state this very clearly, I'll post that, bolding the sections that I think are responsive to your interpretation.

Force-Play-Slide Rule
SECTION 4. The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs.
a. On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base and in a direct line between the two bases. It is permissible for the slider’s momentum to carry him through the base in the baseline extended (see diagram).
Exception—A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.
(1) “On the ground” means either a head-first slide or a slide with one leg and buttock on the ground before the base.
(2) “Directly into a base” means the runner’s entire body (feet, legs, trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.
b. Contact with a fielder is legal and interference shall not be called if the runner makes a legal slide directly to the base and in the baseline extended (see diagram).
A.R.—If contact occurs on top of the base as a result of a “pop-up” slide, this contact is legal.
c. Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:
(1) The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder and alters the play of a fielder (with or without contact);
(2) The runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
(3) The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
(4) The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
(5) The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play.
PENALTY for 1-5—(1) With less than two outs, the batter-runner, as well as the interfering runner, shall be declared out and no other runner(s) shall advance.
(2) With two outs, the interfering runner shall be declared out and no other runner(s) shall advance.
(3) If the runner’s slide or collision is flagrant, the runner shall be ejected from the contest.

Note particularly the first paragraph which says this rule is intended to ensure safety. Therefore, actual interference is not required, nor is the possibility of a double play.
Also, c(1) seems to me to cover specifically the situation of the OP. "The play of a fielder" is more general than "play on a runner".