Illegal Slide?

[Caesar's Ghost]

FED and NCAA only:

R1. Grounder to short. Throws wildly to second. F4 defelcts the ball and it rolls toward the umpire's B position. After the ball is deflected, R1 slides to the inside of the base and (a) does or (b) does not make contact with F4.

Ruling?

[mbyron]

The FED FPSR requires the runner to slide directly into and not past the base. If you judge that the slide is directly into the base (not sure what "the inside of the base" means), then the contact is legal. The fielder has no other protection on a thrown ball.

I don't do NCAA.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

FED and NCAA only:

R1. Grounder to short. Throws wildly to second. F4 defelcts the ball and it rolls toward the umpire's B position. After the ball is deflected, R1 slides to the inside of the base and (a) does or (b) does not make contact with F4.

Ruling?

Is there a force play happening at 2nd base? You state AFTER the ball is deflected (assumes that it is rolling on the ground), R1 slides into second. Please clarify, is there a play being made on the sliding runner?

For sake of argument, I will assume that R1 is sliding into 2nd. The deflection part is irrelevant. As mentioned, a slide, to be legal, must be in direct line with the base. Contact can't be made behind the base or away from the base. If the slide is legal, then I can't have a violation of the FPSR in A or B. There can be legal contact.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

For sake of argument, I will assume that R1 is sliding into 2nd. The deflection part is irrelevant. As mentioned, a slide, to be legal, must be in direct line with the base. Contact can't be made behind the base or away from the base. If the slide is legal, then I can't have a violation of the FPSR in A or B. There can be legal contact.

Bolded is FED only. Not illegal in NCAA and OBR.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

FED and NCAA only:

R1. Grounder to short. Throws wildly to second. F4 deflects the ball and it rolls toward the umpire's B position. After the ball is deflected, R1 slides to the inside of the base and (a) does or (b) does not make contact with F4.

Ruling?

As others have stated, your description leaves a lot out however, sometimes players just doesn't know how to play a position properly and coaches and fans want the umpire to compensate by calling something, when it is just sloppy play. Was F4 playing on the wrong side of the bag and there was contact.? Did he cross the bag to go after the ball? All these things have to be taking into consideration.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by Matt

Bolded is FED only. Not illegal in NCAA and OBR.

Correct, I should have stated my views are related to FED only.

[Caesar's Ghost]

As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?

Ah, now I understand the question: do we have to have hindrance to call FPSR violation/interference?

The standard for FPSR is "make contact or alter the play," so I would say, since it says "OR," that contact is sufficient for the violation. Since the violation is treated as INT, you can have a penalty for INT even without hindrance.

Another way to get there: FPSR is a safety rule, and with safety rules we err on the side of caution. Even if F6 never threw the ball, the runner has violated the rule and brought the penalty on himself.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ah, now I understand the question: do we have to have hindrance to call FPSR violation/interference?

The standard for FPSR is "make contact or alter the play," so I would say, since it says "OR," that contact is sufficient for the violation. Since the violation is treated as INT, you can have a penalty for INT even without hindrance.

Another way to get there: FPSR is a safety rule, and with safety rules we err on the side of caution. Even if F6 never threw the ball, the runner has violated the rule and brought the penalty on himself.

So you're getting two outs with contact, and no outs without contact? (Just trying to clarify).

(And, remember, F4 didn't have the ball at the time of the slide -- it was well away from him and he hadn't even started to chase it.)

[RPatrino]

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:

"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:
"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

[RPatrino]

What is the definition of a "play" ? If the alleged FPSR violation is occurring while F4 is chasing the deflected ball, how can you have a force play?

Let's add another hypothetical situation for argument sake. Let's say the grounder went to F5 instead. R1 gets a great jump and because of that, F5 chooses to throw to 1b to get the sure out. R1 over slides 2b and makes contact with F4 standing behind 2nd base. What do you have?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

FED and NCAA only:

R1. Grounder to short. Throws wildly to second. F4 defelcts the ball and it rolls toward the umpire's B position. After the ball is deflected, R1 slides to the inside of the base and (a) does or (b) does not make contact with F4.

Ruling?

You cite that the slide occurs after the fielder has booted the ball and it has rolled away. I have a hard time protecting a fielder if the slide is otherwise legal - i.e. in compliance with 2-32. The immediate act of making a play is over. The force play mention in 8-4-2 is moot since the ball was misplayed and the runner is legally sliding. You cannot have a force play without the ball. The runner may be guilty of MC depending on the contact though. You have to ask yourself, did he do it to prevent the fielder from recovering the ball and possibly making a play on the B/R? If so, enforce your FPSR. Based on what was in the OP, we probably have just a defensive mistake and a legal slide though.

The NCAA rule book has a great diagram showing where a runner can slide legally. I hope that the NFHS includes it in next year's update.

[Steven Tyler]

I don't think the FPSR is the proper call for the OP.

I would damn sure ring R1 up for an illegal slide since the throw came from F6, and R1 was sliding to the inside. In this situation, R1 should have been going straight to the base, or to the outfield side.