Illegal Slide?

[Caesar's Ghost]

As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?

Ah, now I understand the question: do we have to have hindrance to call FPSR violation/interference?

The standard for FPSR is "make contact or alter the play," so I would say, since it says "OR," that contact is sufficient for the violation. Since the violation is treated as INT, you can have a penalty for INT even without hindrance.

Another way to get there: FPSR is a safety rule, and with safety rules we err on the side of caution. Even if F6 never threw the ball, the runner has violated the rule and brought the penalty on himself.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ah, now I understand the question: do we have to have hindrance to call FPSR violation/interference?

The standard for FPSR is "make contact or alter the play," so I would say, since it says "OR," that contact is sufficient for the violation. Since the violation is treated as INT, you can have a penalty for INT even without hindrance.

Another way to get there: FPSR is a safety rule, and with safety rules we err on the side of caution. Even if F6 never threw the ball, the runner has violated the rule and brought the penalty on himself.

So you're getting two outs with contact, and no outs without contact? (Just trying to clarify).

(And, remember, F4 didn't have the ball at the time of the slide -- it was well away from him and he hadn't even started to chase it.)

[RPatrino]

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

F4 didn't have the ball, then I don't have a FPSR, there was no play being made. I could have malicious contact, possibly, maybe. More than likely I have nothing.

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:

"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Bob, this is wrong twice.

First, there WAS a play being made: F6 threw the ball to F4. True, F4 booted the throw, but that doesn't mean there was no play at 2B (but see below).

Second, a play is NOT required by the rule:
"Any runner is out who...
...does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases;" (8-4-2b)

Notice 2 different ways to violate the rule: (a) illegal slide that causes illegal contact or alters the play, OR (b) not sliding directly into the base on a force play. Violating (b) is enough to violate the rule; the OP, as I read it, involves violating both (a) and (b), since there is in fact a play being made at 2B.

The only way you DON'T call an FPSR violation here is if you rule that F4 was contacted AFTER, and not in the "immediate act of," making a play. You'd also have to rule that the slide and contact were not part of a force play at the base. That's umpire judgment, of course: if it's bang-bang, I'm still getting 2 outs on this for the runner's violation. The runner when he slid into the fielder didn't know he'd boot it.

Again, for me, this is a safety rule, and any benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. "Coach, if you don't want that call have your runners slide directly into the base."

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

[RPatrino]

What is the definition of a "play" ? If the alleged FPSR violation is occurring while F4 is chasing the deflected ball, how can you have a force play?

Let's add another hypothetical situation for argument sake. Let's say the grounder went to F5 instead. R1 gets a great jump and because of that, F5 chooses to throw to 1b to get the sure out. R1 over slides 2b and makes contact with F4 standing behind 2nd base. What do you have?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

OK. I agree about "force play," but if F4 is still close enough to the base to be contacted by the runner near the base, I'm ruling an FPSR violation. Again, the runner didn't know the play would end when he chose to slide illegally.

If he has moved away from the base and is chasing the ball, that would not be an FPSR violation.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rule you quoted uses the word "play" but you say no play is required. Does Not Compute!

I would contend that once F4 booted the ball there is no longer a play being made. I'm not quite sure because I can't find a FED definition of "play" but in OBR it's a legitimate attempt to retire a runner which you can't do in this case without the ball.

However, the rule does specifically mention a "force play", and that is defined: A force play situation is in effect from the moment the batter becomes a runner, and is not ended until the runner is put out, reaches his advance base, or a trailing runner is put out. A force play does not need a ball or a play. In the OP, the runner is not sliding on a direct line to the base, nor sliding/running away from the fielder. By rule, this is a FPSR violation.

Now, I admit that getting two outs here seems a little over the top, but that's what the rule requires, in both FED and NCAA.